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Author Topic: Accountable, responsible  (Read 6431 times)

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9440geoff

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2009, 02:56:52 PM »

Hi Roy,

This is an excellent thread so thanks for starting it. With so many excellent answers I'm reluctant to try to add anything. However, the following has helped me to understand sin a little better.

In French the verb 'to lust' and the verb 'to covet' is the same, i.e. 'convoiter'.
The noun 'convoitise' means 'greed ', 'lust', or 'covetousness'.

Ray has said of Eve  
Quote
It was not the "eating" of the fruit that made her a sinner -- she had ALREADY sinned by looking, lusting, and fantasizing about her potential wisdom. It was AFTER she sinned that she "did eat."

So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.

 But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.

Geoff
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soberxp

  • Guest
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2009, 04:13:45 PM »



So our sin comes from covetousness, wanting something that is,not ours, or that we should not be desiring.

 But that is the way God has made us, and perhaps if He hadn't made us that way, we would not have the capacity to want Him more than anything else in the world.

Geoff

good point.

Adam n Eve ,they didn't know good n evil ,they must pure in heart,except GOD has told them never eat forbidden fruit,but never told why.P.S when you eat of it you will surely die. why ???
Did Eve ever think "why" n "then what"?or Did she have ALREADY sinned by think of "why".I dunno.
but I know that Eve didn't know the serpent is evil,they are too pure to discriminate good from bad ones.
How do you know good n evil n what's means die ,when you didnt know good n evil n what's means die.even god told them:"GEN 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." "they didnt know good n evil n what's means die!!!!!!

is this a hard one to understand the logic?

here is another hard one .
GEN 2:9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  

trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.   In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food.  
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 04:34:51 PM by soberxp »
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Roy Martin

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2009, 09:29:13 AM »

Thank you Geoff,
 I've been trying to come up with an analogy that will put this into perceptive for me, and just can't seem to come up with one that fits. I have read, and am still re-reading Myth Of  Freewill over and over. I read all the things we can't do of our own; not even a single thought, and I believe all of it about freewill. The proof is undeniable. The answer seems to be in this weak heart we have. I ask myself, what is in a weak heart? This is where covetousness comes from. This is where all the bad things come from. Sin is in there.God gave us this weak heart. It was in Eve, but apparently she didn't know, and then comes Satan sent by God to make it sprout or surface so to speak.
 I know that God knows what Hes doing, and its all good. I know that I'm here right now communicating with all of you because of God, even my thoughts on this topic are not of my own; the hunger to understand everything about this topic, not just most of it, but all of it. I also have thoughts that wants to just shut it down and not give it any more thought as Silvia suggested I do.
 I think and feel I have my answer, but all of the replies and comments gives me more food to chew on that opens doors to other areas of thought that all seems to tie in to this circle that leads to something in the middle of this circle that contains the treasure with more than I was looking for, you know, like an extra bonus kind of thing. Its all about understanding that will stick, that I can cling to, that doesn't slip through my hands like sand, having to keep picking it up over and over.
  I want to be like all of you that say you have it and understand it. Some of you say you still struggle with it from time to time. Well I want it super glued to my heart with complete understanding.

Love to All
   Roy
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 01:33:37 PM »


Hi Roy,

I found these emails, each one has an aspect that needs to be understood, that should give you a little more to chew on.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=9822.0 -----------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ------------------------------

Unfortunately, we can not often learn the meaning of Scriptures from Strong's Lexicon. We learn from God by comparing Scripture with Scripture, spiritual with spiritual, and only then by the inspiration of His Spirit.

And like many Scriptures in God's Word, the Christian World understand little about spiritual things.  Furthermore, when the Scriptures suggest that God is and will be triumphant and victorious over ALL ENEMIES, the theologians of this world are quick to reel God in and diminish often to ought the grand declarations of God and His accomplishments and blessings. Witness their turning I Tim. 2:4,

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the TRUTH,"

into an unattainable "WEAK WISH."

Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:08)?

This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18.  After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."

There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8.  Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse:  "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind."  So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.

Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES."  Hope I didn't loose you yet.

And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will.  God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25).  Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME  is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."

Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES.  Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL.  Just how did He do this?  (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship!   "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?

The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish?   EVERYTHING!  John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF!  And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!

And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read:

"And he gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some , evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

And finally this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" Luke 4:18-19 & 21).

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#temptation -----

Why would Jesus tell us to pray that God should NOT lead us into temptation [Gk: trial] when, in reality, we DO go through trials?

After all, Jesus was led of the spirit into the wilderness for the express purpose of being "tried."

Then James comes along and says

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPTS HE ANY MAN." (James 1:13).

And if that is bad enough, James first tells us in James 1:2 to

"...COUNT IT ALL JOY WHEN YE FALL INTO DIVERS TEMPTATIONS"!

What is going on here?

Although this might sound like a triple contradiction, it is not.

First let's be abundantly clear that God, HIMSELF, does not ever do the actual "trying or tempting."

"And the SERPENT said unto Eve... And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food,  and that it was PLEASANT TO THE EYES ['...the lust of the eyes ... is NOT OF the Father...' John 2:16], and a tree to be DESIRED to make one wise, she TOOK of the fruit thereof, and DID EAT... And the woman said, THE SERPENT BEGUILED [deceived] ME..." (Gen. 3:6 & 13).

"And lead us not into temptation but DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan]" (Matt. 6:13).

"...when YOU  FALL into divers [various] temptations [trials]..." (James 1:2).

"But every man is tempted, when he is DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed. THEN when lust has conceived, it brings forth SIN: and sin, when it is finished [full grown], brings DEATH" (James 1:14-15).

From all of these examples it is abundantly clear that it is not the OBJECT that is the TEMPTATION, but rather the temptation COMES FROM WITHIN, not from without. It was not the "tree" that MADE Eve lust. It is not the "pretty woman" that MAKES a man lust. The LUST IS IN THE MIND, IN THE HEART, and therefore, the trial IS IN THE HEART AND MIND, not in the literal flesh.

And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 02:08:06 PM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 06:38:32 AM »

Until I found that word PREFERENCES that Ray introduced into one of his teachings on this subject of free-will, I too was going around in circles, sensing something bigger that I was not grasping.

What we PREFER reflects our spiritual condition.
 
We begin in spiritual weakness.

Rom 8:20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to VANITY
2Pe 2:18  For when they speak great swelling words of VANITY, they lure through the lusts of the flesh, by unbridled lust, the ones who were escaping from those who live in error
;

See what Kat has brought for consideration in Rays teachings quote....
We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"—
Who puts us IN IT? God does! If God INTENDS anything then it is going to be exactly what God intends. No weak wishes or wiggle room out of it either!

Our preferences begin with us wanting to get into trouble. We like to get in and out of trouble. We enjoy it! We start life as “automatic sinning machines” L Ray Smith.
God changes us through our circumstances and through His goodness He brings us to repentance for enjoying evil. We go from automatic sinning machines to deliberate children conformed by God into HIS image. How does God conform us? Through trials and tribulations, through judgment and Grace, through the Goodness of God.

Isa 29:24  Those who erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and those who murmured shall learn doctrine.

Arc
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G. Driggs

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2009, 01:58:52 PM »



And so we pray that God should not lead us into temptation, but rather DELIVER US FROM THE EVIL ONE [Satan] WHO DOES LEAD US INTO TEMPTATION.

But notice again, we pray that we should be "DELIVERED." We cannot be 'delivered' from something UNLESS WE ARE ALREADY IN IT! God intends that we get "IN IT"--trials and temptations, which are GOOD FOR US, AFTER we have gone through them.

The longer we live the Christian walk, the better we should get at this. Hence Paul tells us,

"For if we would JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged" (I Cor. 11:31).

The MORE we 'judge ourselves' the LESS we are "lead into temptation." We learn to cut it off at the pass, as they say. It is by God's divine counsel that we are led into temptation (even if God never DIRECTLY tries or tempts us), and it is by God's divine counsel that He delivers us from the "evil one."

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,

Ray



This is very encouraging! It really explains a lot going on right now. Never really understood this, until now. Was beginning to get a bit weary of all the trials lately, but now that I understand God intends it to be this way, it gives me a little more faith and courage to face each day. I really thought I was doing something wrong, or maybe there were so many things tempting and trying me that there was something I was not doing right. Considered giving up a few times, but God had different plans. These trials are so strong, but thank God Jesus overcame, so in turn we could overcome also.

Does this verse have anything to do with what Ray is talking about? If so, then it makes a lot more sense.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Thank you all and thank God for such a good topic.

G. Driggs
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Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2009, 05:41:37 PM »

Thank all of you for responding to this thread of which has been very beneficial to my understanding. I hope that it has helped others as well. I realize this topic has been brought up many times, but its still all good to me. Thank you and God bless.

Roy
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2009, 05:01:27 AM »

Hello G Driggs

Yes that has everything to do with it :D

Here are some witnesses to the Scriptures you have posted.

Luk 22:28  YOU are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 8)

2Th 1:4  so much so that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations which you endure.

Act 14:22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God
.

Roy
Quote
I realize this topic has been brought up many times….

Those of us who love the Word of God should never tire of speaking about Him even if the same question appears OVER AND OVER AGAIN!. :)
 
Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?
Rom 11:35  Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?
Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen.


Arc
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 05:02:54 AM by Arcturus »
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LiberatedEagle

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2009, 02:49:10 PM »

Glory be to God for this thread.

Prior to reading this thread I sent a pm to one of the mods regarding the same subject of accountability. It gives me peace to know that I'm not the only one wrestling with this subject. Roy, you relayed my thoughts precisely. Waiting, hoping, believing and trusting to be converted into a child of God is so hard when you are constantly committing sin everyday. Sometimes I wrestle with the thought of being a vessel of dishonor, but then I consider the truths God has revealed to me here. Would God reveal these truths to me and I understand and receive them, but still not be a vessel for Him? Am I in err to think it impossible for God's chosen to reject Him and not become a saint in the Kingdom of God?



Charles

P.S. Thanks Roy for posting what God laid on your heart    
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aqrinc

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2009, 09:59:03 PM »


When we get right down to where the rubber meets the Faith, we are all in error. Humanity thinks we know what we need to fix us (human wisdom). GOD Says the (human wisdom) of this entire world is Foolishness to Him, yet we persist in our wise choices of what we think GOD can or cannot do. When in doubt, check this out, go find the Scripture that addresses the doubt then eat it up (not literally) but in a symbolic way.

One thing to note; humanity is not the object of GOD'S Displeasure and to be destroyed, but the things we are subject to are. First though; we are going through this life to learn about those things and how to deal with them like Jesus Christ Has Done.

Isa 29:16 (ASV)
Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?

Isa 29:17-24 (BBE)
17  In a very short time Lebanon will become a fertile field, and the fertile field will seem like a wood.

18  And in that day those whose ears are stopped will be hearing the words of the book; and the eyes of the blind will see through the mist and the dark.

19  And the poor will have their joy in the Lord increased, and those in need will be glad in the Holy One of Israel.

20  For the cruel one has come to nothing; and those who make sport of the Lord are gone; and those who are watching to do evil are cut off:

21  Who give help to a man in a wrong cause, and who put a net for the feet of him who gives decisions in the public place, taking away a man's right without cause.

22  For this reason the Lord, the saviour of Abraham, says about the family of Jacob, Jacob will not now be put to shame, or his face be clouded with fear.

23  But when they, the children of Jacob, see the work of my hands among them, they will give honour to my name; yes, they will give honour to the Holy One of Jacob, and go in fear of the God of Israel.

24  Those whose hearts were turned away from him will get knowledge, and those who made an outcry against him will give attention to his teaching.

To arrive at that verse 24 point here are a few of the things GOD In HIS Wisdom (The Good Wisdom) has set in motion for us.

Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom 9:19 (TCNT)
19 Perhaps you will say to me-'How can any one still be blamed? For who withstands his purpose?'
20 I might rather ask 'Who are you who are arguing with God?' Does a thing which a man has molded say to him who has molded it 'Why did you make me like this?'

21 Has not the potter absolute power over his clay, so that out of the same lump he makes one thing for better, and another for common, use?

22 And what if God, intending to reveal his displeasure and make his power known, bore most patiently with the objects of his displeasure, though they were fit only to be destroyed,
23 So as to make known his surpassing glory in dealing with the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared beforehand for glory,
24 And whom he called-even us-Not only from among the Jews but from among the Gentiles also!

25 This, indeed, is what he says in the Book of Hosea-'I will call those my People who were not my People, and her my beloved who was not beloved.

26 And in the very place where it was said to them-"Ye are not my People", they shall be called Sons of the Living God.'


Act 14:19-22 (MKJV)
19 And Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there, who, having persuaded the people, and having stoned Paul, they drew him out of the city, supposing him to have died.

20  But the disciples surrounding him, he rose up and came into the city. And the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

21  And preaching the gospel to that city, and having made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioch,

22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.

george. :)


« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 10:07:42 PM by aqr »
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Roy Martin

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2010, 09:03:26 AM »

Thank you George for your time and provided scriptures. Thanks to all of you. Everyone has provided me much to chew on for a much better understanding.

Peace
Roy
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Ricky

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  • Posts: 270
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2010, 10:07:04 AM »

Hi Roy, understanding what the unforgivable sin is, and who commits it, has been made very clear here. I would still have a question though, If ALL, will be saved in the end, how can this sin be unforgivable? it sounds like the people that commit this sin will be forgiven in the end, somehow this does not fit right.  ???
     Bless you all.    Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2010, 10:13:55 AM »

Hi Ricky.
 I wish I could answer your question. I have read the answer somewhere it seems like several times, but its for sure that someone here can and will help you with this.

Peace
Roy
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Kat

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2010, 10:53:12 AM »




Mat 12:31  "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
Mat 12:32  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Though this sounds like a very long time, but it is of limited duration.  We know that there will be no 'eternal' punishment as there was no word for eternal in the Scriptures.  Here is a short excerpt from the letter to Hegee 'The Seven Wonders Of Hell.' 

http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm -----------

There is not one word in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures that can be properly translated "forever" or "eternity," or any other word meaning "endless" time. Some might suggest that a verse such as Rom. 16:26-- " ... the everlasting [Greek: 'aionian'] God" proves that aionian is eternal. It does not. Paul isn't trying to tell us here that God lives "for ever." The Scriptures have long ago told us that God's life has no end (Psalm 102:27). Paul is telling us that God is not off in a corner somewhere unconcerned with mankind, but that He is " ... the eonian God." That is, He is God of the eons in which we live (Rev. 15:8). This does not say God ceases to exist at the end of the eons any more than Christ ceases to exist after He is no longer "King of the eons (Rev. 5:3)."

When there are no more eons, Christ ceases to be the King of the eons (I Cor. 15:24). He certainly doesn't cease to exist. When the eons end (and they all will), then God will be the same God He has always been. It's just that there will be no more eons or ages.

-----------------------------------------------

Eternal was never spoken of, but here are the words "no end" found a couple of times.

Luke 1:33  And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (for the ages/eons), and of His kingdom there will be no end."

Psa 102:27  But You are the same,
       And Your years will have no end.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2010, 10:57:06 AM »

Hi Roy, understanding what the unforgivable sin is, and who commits it, has been made very clear here. I would still have a question though, If ALL, will be saved in the end, how can this sin be unforgivable? it sounds like the people that commit this sin will be forgiven in the end, somehow this does not fit right.  ???
     Bless you all.    Ricky


Ricky,

This sin is said to be unforgiven in this age & the next [Matt 12:32], not forever. This sin is only unforgiven because those that commit such will not repent in this age, God is not calling them.

When God opens our understanding, we repent...it is only God's goodness that leads to our repentance [Rom 2:4].


Marques
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Marky Mark

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2010, 10:57:38 AM »

Hello Ricky.

Here is an email reply from Ray on the question of concern.Something to add to what Kat posted.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3966.0.html

Hello Ray,
        
        I've been looking at the idea of the "unforgivable" sin. I decided to see what you had written on the subject (2 emails that you've placed on your website). Your corrections to the use of "never" made sense, especially in light of the idea of ages, rather than eternal.
        
        But I read what you wrote a couple times and you never really responded to Luke 12:10.
        
        There is no usage of "eternal", "ages", or "never".
        But it does say "not" in a different way then the other scriptures.  
"...but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."
        
        The fact that the sentence ends with "shall NOT be forgiven.", without any exceptions or limitations tacked on, seems to leave "not" as a concrete statement. There is no "for", "until", "through", or any other form of conjunction followed by a time frame to indicate an end... I know the other verses can indicate an end, but I don't see that in this one. Your insight?
        
        Thanks.
        Jojo

        
        Dear Jojo:
        I have probably answered this question a hundred times over the years. Not your specific Scripture, but any Scripture that indicates that someone will die in his sins, and not be forgiven, and not be in the kingdom of God, etc.  What amazes me is that I cannot recall one time that anyone has presented this from the positive perspective. That is not one person has ever asked how someone could "NOT be forgiven," when there are dozens of and dozens of Scriptures that show that ALL shall be forgiven and saved. I would venture to say that 90% of all Bible questions that I am asked are concerning negative contradictions, or negative comments that I contradict the Scriptures.
        
First recognize, Jojo, that there is not this one Scripture which suggests that some "shall NOT be forgiven,:" but there are HUNDREDS of such Scriptures:
        
        "...and he that believes not the Son shall NOT see life..." (John 3:36).
        
        "...broad is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION..." (Matt. 7:13).
        
        "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: DEPART FROM ME...." (Matt. 7:23).
        
        "DESTROY Thou them, O God...CAST THEM OUT..." (Psalm 5:10).
        
        "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION...." (I Thes. 1:9).
        
        "Whose END IS DESTRUCTION..." (Phil. 3:19). Etc., etc., etc.
        
        Jojo, "broad is the way to destruction" IN THIS LIFE.  Not one of these verses is
        speaking of the final destiny of sinners. Judgment will save sinners in the resurrection:
        "When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants OF THE WORLD WILL
        LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9).  Is God going to eternally destroy and
        not forgive "THE RIGHTEOUS?" This "save in this life ONLY" doctrine of Christendom
        is one of the most damnable doctrines on the face of the earth.
        
        God be with you,
        Ray





Peace...Mark
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Ricky

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2010, 07:18:02 PM »

Marques, Bible says in this age and the coming, they cannot be forgiven. I not sure if I understand it right or not, this age, meaning since the beginning of time or life as we know it ? and then the coming, does this mean the coming of Christ and His 1000 year reign, which would be the next age. And then they would be forgiven. And there would be 1 more age after that? the third age. I have heard somewhere that when God creates anything He does it in 3`s ex. water, air, soil have 3 components each to make them what they are, true or not I do not know. Can you add any info to this. Thanks
                          Bless you all.    Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

aqrinc

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2010, 07:44:39 PM »

Hi Ricky,

A few Scriptures that may help to show ages talked about in Scripture.

Mat 12:32 (CLV)
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

Mat 12:32 (WNT)
And whoever shall speak against the Son of Man may obtain forgiveness; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither in this nor in the coming age shall he obtain forgiveness."

Eph 2:4-9(MKJV)
4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us
5  (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
6  and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
7  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
9  not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Heb 13:8 (WNT)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day--yes, and to the ages to come.

Here is a link to more from Ray on unpardonable Sin:
http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm#unpardonable

Any place in Scripture that those things you mentioned in threes? are said to be significant.

george :).

« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 07:57:49 PM by aqr »
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Kat

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2010, 09:31:32 PM »


Hi Richy,

Here is an email about how many ages there may be.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1305.0.html -----

The Scriptures speak of "ageS" in the past (Rom. 16:25, II Tim. 1:9, Titus 1:2, ). So that would equal at least 2 or more ages before our present age.

The we have this "present evil age" (II Tim. 4:10, Titus 2:12, etc.)  So that would equal 1 mone age.

Then we have "the on-coming ageS" (Eph. 2:7) and the "conclusion of the ageS" (Heb. 9:26).  (Eph. 2:7). That would equal at least 2 or more future ages.

So now we are already up to a minimum of FIVE AGES.

God be with you,

Ray

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Ricky

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Re: Accountable, responsible
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2010, 11:02:32 PM »

Thanyou you all for your replys the more there is the easier it becomes.
         Bless you all.      Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.
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