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[Roy Martin]

For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 I've been visiting another forum the last few days, and found it to be very humbling. I got involved in several topics. This forum had believers, and those that don't believe in God at all. Some that have read Rays writings. Anyway, I learned some things about myself. The topic I got more involved in was a discussion about responsible and accountable.I found out that I couldn't explain it at all because I myself still struggle with it. I think that I so much want to that I just except it rather than understanding it. There are times that I just say its one of those things that God just doesn't want me to know, and then as I was re-reading Free Will part 2, I think; I came across the verses above quoted from that series. It seems that these verses nurtures my not understanding even more than before, but on the other hand it seems to put me at the edge of something even bigger, such as a treasure I've been digging for that I thought was in a large chest, but as it turns out for me that this gem might very well be in a small chest in a big field, but a large treasure; if that makes sense to anyone. Well anyway; back to the verses above, and responsible vs. accountability. Doesn't both words mean the same? Since our steps are led by God, then where do we get lust of the heart such as any carnal thought or action or words that we speak. Ray says that we of our own have lust of the heart, but where does that come from since it is God that directs our steps, even this posting I'm doing now, and how am I to understand my own way?
  Pastors mislead the flock and the flock follows; all steps directed by God, and they understand not. Isn't trying to expose those that contradict, actually exposing that God is the one in charge of what they are doing? According to the verses above, they don't understand because God is leading their steps, and at the same time leading the steps of those that want to expose them? Is this correct? Am I right or wrong to think that no one can be led astray by man unless that's the steps  God wants them to take?
  There are times when I'm having thoughts that are very carnal or some sort of action or words that lead me to ask God why am I doing this, or having these thoughts that I can't get rid of. Last night my wife and I was watching a TV serious that has a Gay person on it. He is more feminine than a woman; well I made a comment to Silvia that the least he could do is at least act like a man. This guy literally annoys me to no end, but I don't want to think and feel like that toward anyone.I want to understand, and not judge people like that. Well it was this morning that I found the verses above, and they explained that he can't help the way he is and acts no more than the things that I think and do. Is this not correct? I also want to be in Spirit all the time, and see things, and understand in Spirit, but I come nowhere close, no matter how much I want it.
 Can someone explain the difference between responsible and accountable, and why does God, who is responsible for all things including our steps, hold us accountable and punish, or correct which ever is the right word when we are doing what he directs us to do?
 I went to a forum of which I have avoided all forums except for this one, because I thought I could be misled into some other belief, but I was wrong to think anyone can mislead me or lead me in the right direction unless that is the step God wants me to take. Isn't that what the verses above are saying?
 I can understand being submitted to vanity to humble us and teach us as we are being transformed. Is it that I'm seeing accountability as punishment rather than correction or transformation?

Peace
Roy
  
  

[Marky Mark]

Roy. Hope this helps some.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7). God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part, this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable), but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by Sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:
v
v
We have seen that not even Satan can go against God’s intentions. Satan needs permission from God to do his dirty work. Since God is responsible (but not accountable—seeing that nothing He does is without a great and beneficial purpose), God takes responsibility for His whole creation, and that is why everything will turn out perfect for every one of God’s creatures.


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray




Peace...Mark

[soberxp]

ROY


Matthew 7:
1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 
2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.   
3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 
 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 
 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.   

AS we know the Genesis , before Adam n Eve eaten forbidden fruit , they just didn't know what's the knowledge of good and evil, can you think of that ,MAT5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

 figuratively 6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.   figuratively
"dogs n pigs "  refers to unbeliever 

ASK SEEK KNOCK
7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 
8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 
9 "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
easy for understanding, if I don't like people tell me :"I don't believe in God at all ." it means I hope that people tells me:"I believe in God." so forget about everything,I just need to say:"I believe in God."


THE NARROW AND WIDE GATES
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 
 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[Roy Martin]

Hi Mark, Thats some good stuff.
 So God basically makes us weak and dirty, since we can do nothing of our own even sin which isn't evil, but yet is part of evil. I mean how can we have one without the other, or separate them into two different meanings, or is it like the structure of a house or vessel that has other components that makes it a house or vessel. Vanity consist of several things. We can't have vanity without evil and sin or lust of the heart, and even the unbeliever who's steps also are directed by God according to scripture. If God didn't create sin, then who did? We can't create anything in ourselves nor change ourselves from one vessel to another. Is there a scripture that says we are accountable, or that we of our own have lust of the heart and act on them?

Peace
Roy

[Roy Martin]

Hi Soberxp,

O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 Soberxp, its all just a part of learning and growing, don't you think?

Roy

[soberxp]

Hi Soberxp,

O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 Soberxp, its all just a part of learning and growing, don't you think?

Roy

yep,I agree with you n these scripture are right!     how can I understand my own way,no matter which way, I'm choosing to going [steps] are OF THE LORD,   I'm not ‘free’ but free to choice where I will walk, cuz no matter which way I was choosing to going [steps] are OF THE LORD,  life is really and truly a part of learning and growing.

before I knew Jesus n god,   I always have a feeling,some of my thoughts were not from myself.

can you understand my some kind of rap?

[zvezda]

Is there a scripture that says we are accountable

Mat 12:36    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Luke 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Pet 4:5  Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


Hope this helps. 

[Marky Mark]

Hi Mark, Thats some good stuff.
 So God basically makes us weak and dirty, since we can do nothing of our own even sin which isn't evil, but yet is part of evil. I mean how can we have one without the other, or separate them into two different meanings, or is it like the structure of a house or vessel that has other components that makes it a house or vessel. Vanity consist of several things. We can't have vanity without evil and sin or lust of the heart, and even the unbeliever who's steps also are directed by God according to scripture. If God didn't create sin, then who did? We can't create anything in ourselves nor change ourselves from one vessel to another. Is there a scripture that says we are accountable, or that we of our own have lust of the heart and act on them?

Peace
Roy

If God didn't create sin, then who did?

Hi Roy.

Sin is the disobedience of God's commandments and a falling short of Gods truths[Spiritual mistakes]. Since man was made exceedingly weak this would lead to a sinful nature,which we all are.All fall short of the glory of God because of our carnal mind.So to me at least, sin originates in the heart and mind so as to be from within us,not from God.Remember we do get to make choices in life and God wants us to choose,but how we choose is what separates right from wrong.

A few email replies from Ray.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2302.0.html

> Hi L. Ray,
>
> One question? Only one. Very simple. If God controls everything,
> then what is sin?
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> Chad


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1189.0.html

Dear Reader:
I explained all this in great detail in my series on "The Myth of Free Will Exposed."
God forgives because you and I have been guilty of voluntarily sinning from our hearts, and this is wrong.  God gives us an experience of "evil"--things that are wrong (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal New Testament), so that we will learn and desire to do what is RIGHT.  This spiritual truth is entirely too high for the carnal mind to comprehend.
God be with you,
Ray

Is there a scripture that says we are accountable

ISV
Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the law says applies to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

2Co 2:17  At least we are not commercializing God's word like so many others. Instead, in Christ we speak with sincerity, like people who are sent from God and are accountable to God.

GW
Mat 23:35  As a result, you will be held accountable for all the innocent blood of those murdered on earth, from the murder of righteous Abel to that of Zechariah, son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

Mat 23:36  I can guarantee this truth: The people living now will be held accountable for all these things. 

Darby
1Sa 22:22  And David said to Abiathar, I knew it that day, when Doeg the Edomite was there, that he would certainly tell Saul: I am accountable for all the lives of thy father's house.

ESV
Jas 2:10  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
 
WNT
Mat 12:36  But I tell you that for every careless word that men shall speak they will be held accountable on the day of Judgement.


Hope this helps.



Peace...Mark

[Roy Martin]

Is there a scripture that says we are accountable

Mat 12:36    But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Mat 18:23  Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Luke 16:2  And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward.

Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

1 Pet 4:5  Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.


Hope this helps. 

Thank you Zvezda, and also,
  Some how I forgot that the OT is packed with stories of God holding people accountable by punishing them in all kinds of ways; plaques, famine,droughts, death; to even children because of their parents sin. Wow! just when I thought I was about to get somewhere.
  It definitely takes an act of God to see His love in all of this, and have understanding of it. I can also see why no man dead or alive can prove to someone that God exist and that He loves us. Yes! no doubt that God guides our steps, and this is definitely one topic that I would like to give up on because there just doesn't seem to be an end to it, but that's not going to be the case; I already know.

Roy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Roy

If it is of any consolation, try to think of your choices as your preferences.
The preferences of a person who is pleasing to God, will be to avoid, shun, have nothing to do with and steer clear of evil. This is pleasing to God

1Pe 3:11  Let him turn aside from evil and do good. Let him seek peace and pursue it.
1Pe 3:12  For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears open to their prayers. But the Lord's face is against those who do evil.

The preferences of a person who does not please God will be to be preferring their own god serving self interest  through guile, cunning, crafty, devious deceitful duplicity.
Just ask yourself what you prefer and you will see how God is shaping you to be either a vessel to honor or to dishonor. We can check our own motives but only truly with fear and trembling because it IS God who is working in us according to His Will and Council making us as He pleases. Many are made for His Mercy. Few will receive His reward for being made righteous. Is God wrong to make many fit for His Mercy and only a few for His reward? Of course not. 
Many are called and few are chosen.

Php 2:12  And so, my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed, not only when I was with you but even more now that I am absent, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it IS God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

Arc

[Roy Martin]

Thanks again Mark for your time.
 Well the one thing I know is I must not be in spirit as Ray says because it's just a bunch of circles to me the more I try to see it.


Dear Chad:

Sin is sin regardless of whether "God controls everything," or God

controls nothing.  Sin is lawlessness, missing the mark, coming short

of the glory of God, etc.  God never ever does any of these things. Men

do. God made men so that they would "miss the mark," "fall short," and

be "lawless."  It is not a sin for God to have made man so weak as to

prevent him from having the power to resist sin. There is a great purpose

for God creating man so that he cannot overcome the lusts of his carnal

weak mind, which God created. For the details, read the rest of our site.

 When I read this I see that God created everything in us. Its like He built a house with a weak structure, all the plumbing and electrical, except the house provides its own water or electricity. This just seems impossible. If you build a car, you put all the parts in it to do the things you want it to do. God made us weak, and carnal, and we had to add other parts of which we know not how or where or when we did it.
  Man oh man I want to see this, but its not going to happen unless God shows it to me, because man isn't coming anywhere close; only more confusing. I'm sorry for bothering anyone or taking your time. This obviously is between God and me.

Peace
Roy

[Roy Martin]

Arcturus, thank you for you reply.
 I know that regardless of my lack of understanding, it will all come out good eventually. As for now I just have to except that God doesn't want me to know what I seek for His own good reason. He has already shown me some wonderful truths and gave me much more understanding than I ever use to have back in Babylon. All in Gods time.
  Thanks everyone.

Roy

  I got everything I read in all of Rays writings, and scriptures, but this one thing has twisted me since I read it. I don't know why it seems so important to me or even matters, but it does, and I can feel it in my heart, and it gnaws at me daily.
 To say that God didn't put everything in us is hard to swallow or even believe. I'm not saying I don't believe; its just hard to believe.
 Insert Quote
For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13).

"The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, IS FROM THE LORD" (Prov. 16:1). [Regardless of the proper translation of the first half of this verse, the second half is emphatically] "…FROM THE LORD."

"O Lord, I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF [not in his will or choice] it is not in man that walks to direct his steps [he is not ‘free’ to choice where he will walk]" (Jer. 10:23).

"Man’s goings [steps] are OF THE LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Prov. 20:24).

 These scriptures makes a lot of sense to me and seems to be where I am right now.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Roy

Only God can give you the desire to understand Him, and only He can fulfil that desire.

God is entirely responsible. As for making us accountable if God did not make us accountable, we could never know or come to experience our deep need for His Mercy and we could never comprehend our dependence on Him for His fathomless Love.
 
Arc

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

If God knows the "the end" then He knows everything that will happen in between from beginning to end.  That is why God is sovereign, He is the all powerful Being that is now and will always be sustaining all of this.  Now He created all the physical things that we have, so that we can have this experience of life.  As we go through this life each and every one of us have a unique experience and yes it is all caused by God (He is sustaining it all), to make us into individual beings.  Now some might say then we are just robots, I think not, since we live out all the things we think, say and do, with all the emotions involved, this is creating a personality unique to each individual.  Ultimately He will finish His work in us to have a big family of all these varied individual that can communicate with each other, go about experiencing different things with all these different people.  Then throw in the angels and we have a whole other experience too.  I can just imagine this going on without end and never getting bored with it.  

That is just my simple way of looking at this, maybe it will help you a bit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Martin]

 Kat, that's exactly how I'm thinking I should look at it too; that all is of God, everything, not just parts of this and that which is just too hard to swallow.
The point is we can't have one without the other, and it all comes from God. He said He created all things and saw that it was good. I'm sticking with that for now.
 Thank you. Yes it helped me very much.


Roy

[Dave in Tenn]

The only thing He didn't say was 'good' was man.  He, collectively, is a work is progress.  Individually, he is a brand new creation and also a work in progress.

This is a hard pill to swallow at first.  We're not usually raised to 'blame' God, and it feels like such a failing and so blasphemous to say that God is responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.  Yet, we are happy to acknowledge that God is responsible for our redemption, and for conforming us to the image of Christ.  Evil had/has to happen for those things to be fulfilled too. 

Without the first part of our lives (where we are subject to the rule of sin and death) there can't be a 'rest of the story' in ressurection/being raised to newness of life (where we are subject to the rule of Christ).  He didn't come to call the righteous to repentance.  He also is not currently calling those with no 'ear' for repentance.  That's two reasons why the way is so narrow.              

[Marky Mark]

I think God lets conditions exist in the world that give meaning to the word sin. Why can't God create whatever He deems necessary in order to have a family of righteous sons and daughters? Just because sin exists does not mean that God puts sin in our hearts to commit. We know that God is Holy and that humanity is not.God cannot sin but He can and has created evil conditions so that sin can ultimately flourish. Satan comes to mind as one of His creations that was created for the explicit purpose to deceive and make mankind fall short[sin] of Gods glory.You would have to ask yourself if God created evil does that mean that He is evil? The carnal nature of mans heart is what commits sin because it was by design to facilitate an end purpose. Just because the Creator creates does not mean that he is being sinful in His creation.The evil choices that we commit are the reasons that sin exist. Remember God is Perfect and Perfection does not make mistakes[sin].

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



Peace...Mark

[Roy Martin]

Hi Dave, when I first realized that God was responsible, I had such a good feeling, and the burden became so much lighter. I accepted it with arms wide open, and still do.
  I can also see that He isn't calling those that don't have an ear for repentance. I never know that this isn't happening when someone is questioning me about God. I remember when I didn't believe in God and would argue with believers and question them. Most of them were kind and polite, and little did I know that God was planting His seed in me that took many years to sprout. At the time, nothing could convince me of a loving God. The whole time I was denying that God didn't exist nor thinking I would ever be repenting while I'm talking to believers, God was calling me, but I didn't have the slightest clue it was happening. I'm not disagreeing with your statement, just adding to it. Hope you don't mind.

Peace
Roy

[Roy Martin]

I think God lets conditions exist in the world that give meaning to the word sin. Why can't God create whatever He deems necessary in order to have a family of righteous sons and daughters? Just because sin exists does not mean that God puts sin in our hearts to commit. We know that God is Holy and that humanity is not.God cannot sin but He can and has created evil conditions so that sin can ultimately flourish. Satan comes to mind as one of His creations that was created for the explicit purpose to deceive and make mankind fall short[sin] of Gods glory.You would have to ask yourself if God created evil does that mean that He is evil? The carnal nature of mans heart is what commits sin because it was by design to facilitate an end purpose. Just because the Creator creates does not mean that he is being sinful in His creation.The evil choices that we commit are the reasons that sin exist. Remember God is Perfect and Perfection does not make mistakes[sin].

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.



Peace...Mark

Of course Mark, I agree. I'm to that point that I except that God created everything. God might not make us sin Himself, nor tempt us, nor is He evil or ever sinned or ever made a mistake, but He did create everything and gave life to everything. He built vessels  with everything it takes to do his will and purpose. He doesn't tempt us, but He sends Satan to do it. This doesn't interest me much right now as to why it's this way with Satan doing the tempting. God knows what Hes doing. Its me that doesn't know most of the time what I'm doing. Someone put all the ingredient's in me that causes me to sin. If I did it then I should be able to take it away, but I can't, but I do pray daily asking God to give me a new heart and change me.

Peace
Roy

[Marky Mark]

Someone put all the ingredient's in me that causes me to sin. If I did it then I should be able to take it away, but I can't, but I do pray daily asking God to give me a new heart and change me.

Roy,that someone is you. As a infant you did not learn of things until you were introduced to them. As you grew up and experienced the things of this world, that is when you had to make your own choices that would ultimately affect who and what you are or become.We all are accountable for the decisions that we make and our sweet Father knows this,because that is His way of doing it. Amen.
 
I look at this life that we live in of the flesh as no more than a proving ground for our eventual Spiritual conversion.God is the One who will bring all in line with what He needs to do in order to complete in His work,not only in this world, but more importantly, in the Spirit.The Fathers works in you will be how all come to the point of righteousness so as to become perfect children of The Most High. There is absolutely no way that we of ourselves can do the works which need to be done in ourselves,this can only come from God.

Pray to God and ask for what you seek with a earnest and loving heart and I can say with confidence that he will answer your prayers because of the works that He has already started in you. He will finish them,rest assured. All is of Him and for Him and to me that is reason enough to worship and rely on Him, and not of myself. My prayer for you Roy is that our Father in heaven gives you the patience and knowledge to come to an understanding of who and what He is and why we have to go through the things of this world in order that His plans of perfection can come to bloom.


All Praise and Glory to The Most High.


Peace...Mark