Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[emkayfey]

Yet others be saving, snatching them out of the fire, yet to others be merciful with fear, hating even the tunic spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23 Concordant)
And some in fear save ye, out of the fire snatching, hating even the coat from the flesh spotted.(Jud 1:23 YLT)
And, on some, indeed, have mercy,--such as are in doubt, be saving, out of the fire, snatching them;(Jud 1:22 Rotherdam)

I learnt a great deal from Oatmeals Lake of fire post...great.

I have this question from the above scriptures;Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement. Thanks.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello emkayfey

Marques posted an excellent reminder of the reason why we should prefer Judgment now and not later.
You ask :

Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement.

Judgment is fire. Everyone shall be judged.
 
Hos 8:14  For Israel has forgotten his Maker, and builds temples. And Judah has multiplied cities. But I will send a fire on his cities, and it shall burn up her palaces.
Heb 12:29  for also, "Our God is a consuming fire."

1Co 3:15  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.



Arc

[mharrell08]

I have this question from the above scriptures;Can we save any out of fire? even if not literal, my emphasis are on on the words 'save' and 'from' or 'out of fire' even if as a form of judgement. Thanks.

Hello Emkayfey,

No, we do not need to save anyone from judgment fire, Jude is not talking about that kind of fire. Jude uses the metaphor of 'fire' as speaking of danger, not righteous judgment fire. To save [Gk. 'sozo'] means 'to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction'. Jude is speaking of 2 different forms of convincing others of the gospel.

Jude 1:21-22  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. And of some have compassion, making a difference:

Here, Jude speaks of convincing some through compassion & mercy. This word 'difference' [Gk. diakrino #G1252] means to 'judge, discern, to try, decide'. It is the same 'diakrino' we are to do, to ourselves, that Paul teaches about:

1 Cor 11:31  For if we would judge ['diakrino'] ourselves, we should not be judged

Here Jude speaks of another, more forceful method of convincing others:

Jude 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Spotted or unclean garments is always symbolic of unrighteousness. This method is essentially speaking of convincing others to follow the Lord by rebuking them of their ungodly ways.

For example, think of the contrasting ways that Paul spoke to the churches. Paul was more 'forceful', if you will, with the church of Corinth for their attitude of following one apostle over another [1 Cor 3]. But to the church of Thessalonians [1 Thess] Paul was more compassionate and really edifying the church to continue in their walk with the Lord.

Another, more modern example, would be Ray's email replies. To those who write and are genuinely seeking understanding of God and His Word, Ray shows more patience & compassion. When others seek to 'rebuke' or discredit his teachings, Ray calls them out for their unrighteous attitude.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Emkayfey,

Jude 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference:
v. 23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Marques brought out the word "difference."  This seems to be saying that we can make a difference to someone, we do that here at the forum with encouragement or showing patience in explaining something to those that come here for answers.  It's not that WE "save" them, but when the Spirit of God is working through us, then we can be an instrument in His hands. God wants us to recognize the working of the Spirit in us, and for us to "yield" ourselves unto Him. 

Rom 6:13  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

It's always God that does the good works in us, but He wants us to see that through the working of the Spirit in us that we can make a difference to someone.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[emkayfey]

Thank you Marques and Kat for your explanations...goes a long way to explain what Jude might be talking about, I am still thinking about his choice of words e.g from fire, I believe we could still explore this further. 

[hillsbororiver]

Very interesting topic emkayfey,

Antaiwan, I believe you are on to something here. Often we have a tendency to only apply scripture to the here and now, we look for the literal, moral and even allegorical messages but sometimes we forget about the prophetic message that might be contained within books not normally associated with prophecy.

If we look carefully at what emkayfey noted about what is being proposed in Jude, we must ask ourselves what power do we presently have to pull anyone out of any type of trial, tribulation or spiritual fire they might be experiencing in this life, in this age? Yes, we can be an example, we can answer a question when asked but do any of us have a real power at this time to judge, evaluate, discern and administer mercy and true (spiritual) peace if need be? I can only answer for myself and the answer is a resounding NO!

I have no such power....

I can hear responses now saying "Joe, it is the Spirit which accomplishes these things, not men." True, in this age, but isn't it written that at some point in the age to come His elect will also have been given the power and spiritual discernment to actually have a direct effect on the perfection of others? Not only on people of our own generation(s) but of people throughout the course of history.

Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Read the entire chapter)

Could it be possible that Jude's greater message was directed to the time/age after the following transpires?

Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
 
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
 
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

We know all will eventually be saved, who might be pulling those on the wrong side of the battle out of this "fire" when the time is right, when they are ready for harvest?

Just some thoughts...

Peace,

Joe

P.S. Antaiwan I see your post was removed (by you?), too bad, I thought there was merit in what you wrote.
  

[Akira329]

Hey Joe!

Yeah, I removed the post! (first time I actually removed my own post too!!!)
I understand the point your making and I believe I was thinking along the same lines but I'm still unsure if it applies to this verse. I'm still meditating on it.
Im glad you mentioned the prophetic message point of view.

The verse is translated many different ways and its quite confusing.
Jud 1:22  And of some have compassion, making a difference: (discernment)
Jud 1:23  And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

I understand verse 23 to be a metaphor of how one is saved.
The contemporary version makes more sense to me:
Jud 1:22  Be helpful to all who may have doubts. (why this way???)
Jud 1:23  Rescue any who need to be saved, as you would rescue someone from a fire. There is the figure of speech, a simile. We are to rescue someone as we we would if they were in a fire. Not judgement fire. Then with fear in your own hearts, have mercy on everyone who needs it. But hate even the clothes of those who have been made dirty by their filthy deeds. There is the other!! a metaphor. The dirty clothes are the filthy deeds.

A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.

The scriptures I showed in my previous post, I thought were a witness to these but it didn't fit. So I think, still not sure........
I just don't think this instance is talking about judgment fire.

Joe, you do make a valid point that a lot of things we should do for the wicked and unbelieving we just can't accomplish now.
But we can literally saved them from fire(danger, hurt, harmful situations, etc........) I do understand that is capable for some.

What I can understand from the KJV is that we save some with compassion and then we save some with fear (fear of their harm)
Verse 24 is why I made the previous assumption or post that I erased.
Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

How do we keep them(wicked, mockers, unbelieving) from falling?
He is able to keep us from falling because we have be chosen out.
See where I'm going?

I'm going to continue to meditate.........
Like my friend said I might be suffering from paralysis of analysis!!! seriously!!!

Antaiwan

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Antaiwan,

Perhaps the only way to experience and fulfill this message from Jude would be by joining our local volunteer fire department..... 

Peace,

Joe   

[G. Driggs]

Not sure if this is a spiritual match, but I think it's worth a look.

Zec 3:1  Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the LORD, with Satan standing at his right side to accuse him.
Zec 3:2  The LORD said to Satan: "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! May the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Isn't this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
Zec 3:3  Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the Angel.
Zec 3:4  So He spoke to those standing before Him, "Take off his filthy clothes!" Then He said to him, "See, I have removed your guilt from you, and I will clothe you with splendid robes."
Zec 3:5  Then I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So a clean turban was placed on his head, and they clothed him in garments while the Angel of the LORD was standing nearby.
Zec 3:6  Then the Angel of the LORD charged Joshua:
Zec 3:7  "This is what the LORD of Hosts says: If you walk in My ways and keep My instructions, you will both rule My house and take care of My courts; I will also grant you access among these who are standing here.
Zec 3:8  "Listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your colleagues sitting before you; indeed, these men are a sign that I am about to bring My servant, the Branch.
Zec 3:9  Notice the stone I have set before Joshua; on that one stone are seven eyes. I will engrave an inscription on it"--the declaration of the LORD of Hosts--"and I will take away the guilt of this land in a single day.
Zec 3:10  On that day, each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree." This is the declaration of the LORD of Hosts.

Jud 1:22  Have mercy on some who doubt;
Jud 1:23  save others by snatching them from the fire; on others have mercy in fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
Jud 1:24  Now to Him who is able to protect you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless and with great joy,
Jud 1:25  to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, power, and authority before all time, now, and forever. Amen.

I can see how all this might be talking about things that might happen in the next age, but I can also see some of these happening in this age. Then again I could be way off.

G.Driggs

[hillsbororiver]

I can see how all this might be talking about things that might happen in the next age, but I can also see some of these happening in this age. Then again I could be way off.

G.Driggs

Often we have a tendency to only apply scripture to the here and now, we look for the literal, moral and even allegorical messages but sometimes we forget about the prophetic message that might be contained within books not normally associated with prophecy.

Hi George,

You are not off at all, at least from my perspective. Should we ever ignore meditating or considering any literal, moral or allegorical message in His Word? When, or at what time in the here and now can we be confident and complacent enough to say to ourselves (or anyone who happens to be listening) "I know everything, on every level what this book, chapter or even verse of what this scripture is saying?" My only real issue is that it is prudent to also consider the potential prophetic application as well.

My point was not to diminish or exclude any other interpretation but to propose there may indeed be another application as well.

Peace,

Joe  

 

[Kat]

As I was reading through Jude it becomes clear right off that he is talking to the believers about those that come among them that are not of like mind.

Jude 1:4  For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jude goes on to warn the believers about how corrupt these people are.

v. 17  But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 18  how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.
v. 19  These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Now we come to the verses in question. Isn't he just saying how to help those that these "ungodly people" are affecting?

v. 22  And have mercy (compassion) on those who doubt;
v. 23  save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.

When he talks about saving some, I think he is speaking of trying to help "save" some from those ungodly people luring them away.  James and Paul both spoke this way.

Rom 11:13  Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14  in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

James 5:19  Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Just wanted to add these Scriptures to the discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Kat those are the scriptures I needed!!!
Thank You!

[emkayfey]

The contemporary version makes more sense to me:
Jud 1:22  Be helpful to all who may have doubts. (why this way???)
Jud 1:23  Rescue any who need to be saved, as you would rescue someone from a fire. There is the figure of speech, a simile. We are to rescue someone as we we would if they were in a fire. Not judgement fire. Then with fear in your own hearts, have mercy on everyone who needs it. But hate even the clothes of those who have been made dirty by their filthy deeds. There is the other!! a metaphor. The dirty clothes are the filthy deeds.

A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.

Rom 11:13  Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
v. 14  in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

James 5:19  Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
v. 20  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Just wanted to add these Scriptures to the discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

The comparative scripture by Kat and the contemporary version translation by akira seems to make things clearer and more sensible for me, you'll have thought concordant version would put this better, this underscores the value of cross referencing scriptures as Ray often advocates.
So Jude is either only a Simile as portrayed by the contemporary version or Jude is talking to the believers about those that come among them that are not of like mind as noted by Kat. Or it is actually talking about another age. as pointed out by hillsbororiver.
Loads of food for thoughts on this now.
Emmanuel

[Deborah-Leigh]

To follow what Kat posted.

Act 20:29  For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock.

Jesus tells us what is going to happen.

Luk 10:3  Go! Behold, I SEND YOU FORTH as lambs among wolves.

Jesus tells us how He handles this.  
 
Mat 10:16  Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore BE AS WISE AS SERPENTS AND AS HARMLESS AS DOVES.

This is the Plan of God.

1Co 11:19  For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.
 
Act 20:30  Also men shall arise from your own selves, speaking perverse things in order to draw disciples away after them.

2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

2Co 4:7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us;

Act 20:35  I have shown you all things, that working in this way we ought to help the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same YESTERDAY and TODAY and forever.

Arc

[indianabob]

Great study friends,
Thanks to all for the stimulating and helpful input.
As other have mentioned there is much to mull over.
It is topics such as this that give my daily life purpose and that drive me to focus my efforts in study and in prayer for understanding.
Indiana Bob

[mharrell08]

A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.

The scriptures I showed in my previous post, I thought were a witness to these but it didn't fit. So I think, still not sure........
I just don't think this instance is talking about judgment fire.

Antaiwan makes a good point here. The word 'snatch' means to 'save' in the Greek [Gk. 'sozo'], it does not make sense for one to be 'saved' from spiritual judgment fire when it is that same fire which saves all humanity.

Whenever the scriptures use 'save' [sozo] it always means to take one out of harm's way or heal/bless them:

Matt 8:25  And his disciples came to [Him], and awoke Him, saying, Lord, save [Gk. sozo] us: we perish.

Mark 5:27-28  When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole [Gk. sozo].

Remember, judgment by fire, Gehenna fire, Lake of Fire are all the same fires and accomplish the same in all human beings [see 'All Fires are Same Consuming Fire (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm)]. These fires also have brimstone, which is symbolic of the purification in these fire.

If Jude were referencing spiritual fire, he would not have likened the person in such a state to having 'garments stained in the flesh'. If a person where in fiery judgment, their clothes would be whitened [Rev 3:4-5  Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;]

'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.

Remember, it is through the foolishness of preaching that God uses to call His people [1 Cor 1:21]. Sometimes through strong rebuke, other times a softer hand. The spirit leads us, gives us discernment for each occasion.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[emkayfey]

...
'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.

Thanks a lot Marques, it all seem to join up together now, 'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. I was gulity of looking at it more literarily.

Great contributions from everyone...and one less baffling scripture for me.

Emmanuel

[hillsbororiver]

Hi All,

So we have the power presently to "save" people? I thought that comes later...

This narrow definition has a bit of a church aroma to it. Isn't it only God that saves (in this age) whomsoever He might choose? Of course we may be used as a vehicle or vessel but I doubt even Ray who has touched millions through his articles believes he has any power to open eyes blinded by God at this point in time.

Again I do not dispute the literal interpretation only that it goes deeper and is in line with other scripture as well as what Ray teaches.

From LOF 12

You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:

    "For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).

WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:

First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.

But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?

The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?

Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.

    "For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).

God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.

God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!

And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:

God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!"

http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html

Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?

Peace,

Joe

[Marky Mark]

Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?

Peace,

Joe

Joe,I would like to answer that question.


NO!!!


Peace...Mark

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi Joe.  I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.

You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people.  Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'

We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways.  The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think? 

By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (Rom 1:11-12  For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to.  That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?

Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now?  There, I have to agree with you.  Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time!  Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others.  And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.

Short version.  We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.