> General Discussions
Snatch them from fire?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on January 01, 2010, 05:59:56 PM ---A friend of mine made a good point, It doesn't make sense to be saved or rescued from judgement fire.
We are saved by this fire not from it.
The scriptures I showed in my previous post, I thought were a witness to these but it didn't fit. So I think, still not sure........
I just don't think this instance is talking about judgment fire.
--- End quote ---
Antaiwan makes a good point here. The word 'snatch' means to 'save' in the Greek [Gk. 'sozo'], it does not make sense for one to be 'saved' from spiritual judgment fire when it is that same fire which saves all humanity.
Whenever the scriptures use 'save' [sozo] it always means to take one out of harm's way or heal/bless them:
Matt 8:25 And his disciples came to [Him], and awoke Him, saying, Lord, save [Gk. sozo] us: we perish.
Mark 5:27-28 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole [Gk. sozo].
Remember, judgment by fire, Gehenna fire, Lake of Fire are all the same fires and accomplish the same in all human beings [see 'All Fires are Same Consuming Fire (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm)]. These fires also have brimstone, which is symbolic of the purification in these fire.
If Jude were referencing spiritual fire, he would not have likened the person in such a state to having 'garments stained in the flesh'. If a person where in fiery judgment, their clothes would be whitened [Rev 3:4-5 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;]
'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.
Remember, it is through the foolishness of preaching that God uses to call His people [1 Cor 1:21]. Sometimes through strong rebuke, other times a softer hand. The spirit leads us, gives us discernment for each occasion.
Hope this helps,
Marques
emkayfey:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on January 02, 2010, 08:57:40 AM ---...
'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. Again Jude shows a contrast in how we deal with the unbelieving. On one hand, Jude admonishes to do so with compassion [Jude 1:22]. On the other hand he likens a more forceful deposition, of one 'snatching one from impending destruction [Jude 1:23]. Anyone who has ever talked with unbelievers about the gospel understands the different approach you take by discerning who you are talking to. Again Jude tells us to use this discernment ('making a difference' [Gk. diakrino - discern, judge, seperate]), in our approach.
--- End quote ---
Thanks a lot Marques, it all seem to join up together now, 'Snatching one from fire' is as much of a metaphor as 'garments defiled from flesh'. I was gulity of looking at it more literarily.
Great contributions from everyone...and one less baffling scripture for me.
Emmanuel
hillsbororiver:
Hi All,
So we have the power presently to "save" people? I thought that comes later...
This narrow definition has a bit of a church aroma to it. Isn't it only God that saves (in this age) whomsoever He might choose? Of course we may be used as a vehicle or vessel but I doubt even Ray who has touched millions through his articles believes he has any power to open eyes blinded by God at this point in time.
Again I do not dispute the literal interpretation only that it goes deeper and is in line with other scripture as well as what Ray teaches.
From LOF 12
You have heard enough lies, now let’s read God’s Truth. Here is one of the most profound and all-encompassing Scriptures in the entirety of the Bible:
"For the earnest expectation of the creature [creation] waits for THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD. For the creature [creation] was MADE subject to VANITY [‘…surely, EVERY MAN IS VANITY’-- Psalm 39:11], NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [GOD] Who has subjected the same in HOPE. Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be DELIVERED from the bondage of corruption [corruption includes DEATH] into THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. For we know that THE WHOLE CREATION GROANS AND TRAVAILS IN PAIN together until now" (Rom. 8:19-22).
WOW! Let me point out a few marvelous things in this verse. Notice the chronological order of things in this Scripture and see how it contradicts the terrible teaching of orthodox doctrine:
First the Sons of God are manifested or shown to be what they really are—SPIRITUAL SONS OF GOD (and DAUGHTERS—II Cor. 6:18)! No longer flesh and blood. No longer subject to the pulls of a carnal mind, but True Sons in the very IMAGE OF GOD and His Son, Jesus Christ.
But what happens next? What happens to all the rest of humanity who are not sons and daughters and are not saved? What will happen to them? Just why, pray tell, are they eagerly awaiting the manifestation of these Sons and Daughters? Of what value is the salvation and manifestation of the few chosen saints to those left behind who are not saved?
The Church teaches the world that the rest of humanity will be tortured for all eternity in the lake of fire. Is that true? Is that the purpose of the lake of fire is?
Next we read what the condition of the rest of humanity is, how they got that way, and what is the solution to the problem.
"For the creature [creation] was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope" (Rom. 8:20).
God MADE man subject to vanity. God did not ask man’s permission to do this. God did it for His own wise purpose. But God is not a fiend that takes pleasure in the failures of weak humanity. God did not make man in a condition of vanity so that most of humanity would fail of the ideal, and God would then torture most of his creation eternally, when it was He Who created them weak and subjected them to every form of vanity in the first place. God created the whole creation subject to vanity. It is, therefore, God’s responsibility to get man out of this mess.
God supernaturally made a way for the "manifested Sons of God" to conquer the flesh and the carnal mind and be formed into the very image of God with the very mind of Christ! They will be no longer subject to vanity when they are manifested. They will be no longer subject to "the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION." They will be FREE!
And it is they who will then FREE the rest of humanity from their bondage! What was the purpose for this subjection to vanity? So that they will eternally fail and God would eternally torture them for their failure? No! Let’s read it:
God has, "subjected the same IN HOPE" (Verse 20). Wait a minute, am I saying that all of humanity, who fail to be in the first resurrection and become the manifest Sons and Daughters of God, will nonetheless still have "hope?" Is there really hope for all the lost and unsaved? How can this be? Aren’t they going to be subjected to the "lake of fire?" Yes, but there is "hope" in the lake of fire. In fact, the lake of fire is their ONLY HOPE! They will not be eternally tortured just because they did not attain to the first resurrection, but will rather be "DELIVERED!"
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?
Peace,
Joe
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---Can any of us make the claim that we are free from the pull of the flesh, our garments spotless?
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Joe,I would like to answer that question.
NO!!!
Peace...Mark
Dave in Tenn:
Hi Joe. I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.
You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people. Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'
We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways. The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think? :)
By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (Rom 1:11-12 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to. That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?
Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now? There, I have to agree with you. Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time! Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others. And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.
Short version. We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.
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