(My response to Dave's post,Dave in black,
Joe in blue Hi Joe. I hope you don't mind me wading in, and I hope this doesn't cloud the discussion.
Hi Dave, I don't mind a bit! You asked, in a round-about way, if we now have the power to save people.
Actually I thought I was very direct in stating this question. 
Keeping in mind always that we, in ourselves, have no power whatsoever except the power of God working in and through us, I have to answer that 'yes, we do, insofar as we opurselves can be saved in this life and current age.'
It is true that we (in hope) are being perfected through our trials and tribulations in the here and now, each one of us in a unique fashion. Paul wrote;
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Aren't we all anxiously awaiting our Lord's return in the hope the chastising will end? We like to say we are now experiencing the purifying Fire of God's correction, is it particularly pleasant? Don't we pray for deliverance? How will this purifying Fire be felt by those who will experience it in the age to come, will they not also seek/pray/hope to be delivered from it? We are entreated to deal with the weak (as I believe this passage is also entreating us) in differing ways. The harshest I know anything about is the 'turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh', but other less 'strident' methods are surely at our disposal, don't you think?
Yes, we should be treating others with mercy if we want God to be merciful to us, and by extension our loved ones. Personally I cannot see myself turning over anyone to Satan, or seeking their destruction as I am all too familiar of my own shortcomings. By the foolishness of preaching, by exhortation, by example, and by fellowship (
Rom 1:11-12 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.) we have the 'power' to 'save' incrementally, over time, those who doubt or are in danger (to varying degrees) of falling under the sway of false prophets or any other weakness, doubt, fear, or failing we are mutually subject to. That, at least in large measure, is the way WE are being saved, isn't it?
We have an obligation to lead by a patient, godly example, this certainly may be used by God to affect another person but perhaps more importantly God is using these opportunities to prepare us for the role we (once again in hope) will be given as Judges and Priests in the age to come, to actually affect a spiritual transformation in our lost brothers and sisters. Can we do the work of ultimate salvation right now? There, I have to agree with you. Not only do we not have the credentials or power, but we don't have the time! Right now, it is OUR OWN salvation which is being worked out...yet it won't be 'worked out' unless and until we can also participate in the 'working out' of others. And it IS the foolishness of preaching that God uses to begin to save the lost, no matter how lost they are or in what age they find themselves...past, present or future.
Amen!Short version.
We can (and are called to) save others even now...but this 'salvation', like our own, is not complete until judgement and resurrection, or resurrection and judgement.
This is something (in bold) where I must disagree, I think Ray nailed it in the paper;WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
CAN YOU ‘WIN’ SOULS FOR CHRIST?
All my life I heard of "winning souls for Jesus." It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus. Many Christians feel a definite need to try and reach people for Jesus before they die. The Christian teaching is that if anyone is not reached and persuaded to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour before he dies, then he will at death immediately go into the pagan Greek hell of hades and be tortured in fire for all eternity. Even after learning many of the Truths of God on bible-truths.com, people continue to ask me how they can fulfill their obligation to witness for Christ and become effective teachers of God’s Truths to their family, neighbors, or fellow parishioners.
Shocking as it might sound to most, the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind.
But isn’t there a Scripture somewhere that speaks of "winning souls?" No, not really.
Once only do we find any words regarding "winning souls" in the King James Bible:
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise" (Prov. 11:30).
This verse, however, has absolutely nothing to do with saving the souls of those who believe in Jesus as their Saviour. The Hebrew word kal from which the word winneth was translated, is used hundreds of times in the King James, but only once is it translated into any form of the word "win." It means to, take, bring, fetch, acquire, rescue, etc., but "win" is a poor choice of words. Besides, spiritual salvation through Jesus Christ is not the topic of Proverbs 11:30. Two New Testament Scriptures:
In Phil. 3:8 we read, "…that I may win [Gk: ‘gain’] Christ…" and in I Pet. 3:1, "…they also may… be won [Gk: ‘gained’] by the conversation [conduct] of the wives…" The other dozen times this Greek word kerdaino is used, it is always ‘gain’ or ‘gained.’ Example: "…Lord you delivered unto me two talents: behold, I have gained [Gk: kerdaino] two other talents beside them" (Matt. 25:22).
Why didn’t the King James translate this: "…behold I have WON two other talents…?" Surely even these translators could see the implications of increasing our God-given talents by gambling with them for higher ‘WINNINGS.’
Christians need to get all this gambling terminology out of their heads when it comes to the doctrines of God. Salvation has nothing to do with winning some; loosing some; betting on statistical odds; taking chances, and all such Las Vegas crap table nonsense.
Salvation is not a matter of a first chance or a second chance or any chance. Salvation is "sure."
"SURELY, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He NOT, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us ALL? (Rom. 8:32, Concordant Literal New Testament).
GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN
"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let’s not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don’t GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.
But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "…work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:
"For [‘for’ means ‘because’] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm Once again I will state I do believe God presents us with opportunities to speak the right words at the right time and that we may be the vessel being used by God to reach another person in the here and now. I don't dispute this. I can say with even more certainty that how we respond to these opportunities is how we ourselves potentially grow in spirit. But I also see prophecy in this message from Jude that points to a time when we have real Godly discernment, are really perfect and free from our own flesh and our garments are snow white in righteousness.
Thank you Dave for your response.
Peace,
Joe
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