A Message to the Stubborn

[mharrell08]

Hello All:

I will try to be brief but I feel this needs to be said. I have been reading the bible-truths website for a little over a year and have been a part of the forum for a few months. I don't claim to know everything or any more than anyone else. As you can see, I am still a "newbie". That being said, there is one consistent issue that we all need to calm down on and that is the stubborness.

Every week, someone (usually a newbie or whatever the next step up is) makes a point about whatever issue they feel scripture is stating, a few mods and others will show that they are somewhat off in their analysis (all using multiple scripture by the way) and then that someone refuses to humble themselves and goes on a small tangent about how they are not wrong. This is the furthest thing from loving one another. I am not trying to preach, but it is discouraging for everyone when we all come to read, study, and discuss scripture and someone wants to pound their message into the ground and go tit for tat with one another. If you truly feel you are right, why can't you stay humble and just agree to disagree? Why do you feel you have this all knowing understanding and no one can turn you from? This goes along with Ray's teachings about idols of the heart. We have to let that stubborness and pride go. No one really knows it all.

Again, I'm sorry to be so long-winded but since I have been a part of this forum, every week it happens. If this is preaching, I will understand if this needs to be deleted. I just wanted to bring something to light that goes on entirely too much in my opinion. Thanks


Marques

P.S. This is nothing personal as I am a stubborn one myself sometimes. Just hope it can help us put things in a good perspective.

[Samson]

Marques,

              I agree and your point is well taken. I can't speak for the rest of the World, but this country seems to encourage excessive or false pride and stubborness, being stubborn for what's clearly right is one thing,  being stubborn for ones personal agenda is quite another matter. I belonged to a denomination for twenty years that excels in being stubborn, even when the evidence is explicitly clear they are wrong. I guess stubborness is related to self-pride, haughtiness, self-importance, vanity and the like. Those at this Forum who formally belonged to a extremely legalistic self-righteous Denomination that claimed to " know it all " might have experienced a tremendous humbling upon realizing they didn't " know it all ", this was true in my case. Fortunately for me, I didn't abandon the Scriptures along with that Religion.

             Anyway, thankyou for the heads up regarding the undesirable trait of stubborness, I will try to apply this counsel to myself.

                              Your Brother in Christ, Samson.

[Dennis Vogel]

Because it's easy to be rude on the Internet.

Because it's impossible to tell someones tone in a post (they may not have meant it to sound so abrasive).

Because some here are religious hobbyists.

Because too many think they are called to be teachers.

Because some here know their beliefs line up with bible-truths.com but forget they too were once deceived.

Because we are all stubborn and prideful (as noted).

That said, we still need to be aware of the wolves in among the sheep. Every few weeks we get someone pretending to be one of us but whose real purpose is to "set us straight." So we need to be careful. Some here are too zealous and over react, but react we must, just not with malice, please.

Dennis

[Matt]

I agree with you Marques, I too come here to "read, study, and discuss scripture" and maybe make a few friends along the way.  Life is too short to waste it fretting with each other.

Anyway, thankyou for the heads up regarding the undesirable trait of stubbornness, I will try to apply this counsel to myself.

Good advice for us all Samson!


Well put Dennis


Matt

[hillsbororiver]

In my almost 3 years participating in this Forum I have seen an undeniable pattern emerge by observing the folks who join this board, the following is a private message I wrote many months ago to a couple members who had concern over what the were witnessing here;


Hi -----,

It is my hope that (insert name here) is merely experiencing the frustration from wanting to know everything at once and forgetting about the study and patience that will eventually lead to wisdom and understanding. I have seen this pattern repeatedly.

1 Skim through a couple articles, get excited about no hell, no tithes.

2 Join the Forum

3 Stop reading and demand answers from the membership

4 Begin teaching things they still embrace from Babylon

5 Get challenged by the membership and the mods

6 Leave the Forum

I have also seen those that do read (for a while) and continue to be positive and active here but then begin to bring in scripturally unsound things that were "revealed" to them, they are dissatisfied with the response and become a little more self defensive and even confrontational as they accuse the Forum of being "followers of Ray" and the moderators as being cops, nazi's or whatever. They conveniently forget the rules, really the outline of what this Forum was founded on, discussion of the articles, not as a soap box for would be or self proclaimed teachers.

Of course these things did not start at BT, Paul speaks of this in his writings, just a couple examples here;
 
1Ti 1:6  From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

1Ti 1:7  Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

More and more I am convinced that we are to learn discernment through these episodes, seeking His wisdom and guidance but especially His will in dealing with every individual issue that presents itself.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

This is not directed at any one person but shared in the hope we all would show patience and empathy as best we can through His Spirit. Not becoming angry but rather to learn from these experiences that are sure to repeat themselves again and again here and in our personal lives until we are more aligned with His will day by day and moment by moment.

Peace,

Joe   

[kweli]

Thanks for that Joe. Those who have ears should hear (please??? Let's rather encourage each other)

[Craig]

Joe,

Great points.  Members pay attention to what Joe says.  The forum is like a cassette tape on a loop.  The same circumstances happen over and over.  Sort of like a country music song,  man buys truck, dog dies, woman cheats, woman takes everything, man wrecks truck   On the forum the names change and the order changes but we always end back at the beginning over and over.  The forum has shown me alot about human behavior as I'm sure most of you old timers would agree.

But as the forum matures I see the members here mature also and discernment becoming stronger in some.  This is a blessing to witness.  We should be patient with new members as we all were new one time or the other.  Be good leaders, not good herders.

We all fall into the trap as Joe mentioned, the "beast within" is strong, and that is the fight we all must strive to overcome.

Blessings
Craig

[kweli]

I didnt want to go too deep but I feel I must. As much as Joe and Craig have said a mouthful and they are both on point, I have something to say for someone (hopefully). I'm a new member. And more so a new 'believer' (just under 2 years). So this may just be my folly. Anyway here goes:

WE (newbies, new believers, just learning to eat meat) ought to be careful of not emulating the very nature we despise; that being the nature of the Pharisees. They knew Scripture. They had e-swords and Concordances of their time. They quoted Scripture like nobody. They even attached Jesus in many occasions with Scripture. But what I noticed from the Scriptures is that Jesus responded to them, not with Scripture (Law, letter), but with the application of Scripture (Spirit). Read from all those who witness about Jesus.

I believe we are (at least trying to be) members of the Living Church of Christ. Since Christ is the Head of this Church, we ought to try to follow Him in His ways. According to Him, it is more important for us in the New Covenant to know the application of Scripture. I noticed that Paul also quoted Scripture for the application (line upon line, precept upon precept, because the sum of the Word is truth).

So let us not be like the Pharisees who are walking concordances but fail to submit to the Law that is most important. If we love ourselves enough that we wouldnt want to be condemned then let's not condemn etc etc. Only then can we even come to claim that we are indeed grateful of the knowledge and understanding of Truth (if im not mistaken that's the purpose of the BT forum).

Like Ray would say, I speak as a fool.

[Little Joe]

Hello Everybody,

Here is my honest take on all of this. 

When I signed up for this forum, I agreed to abide by certain rules.  Maybe there are some of the rules I have a little trouble agreeing with on principal (being the rebel that I am ), but I did agree to abide by them.  It is not my forum, so I respect the rules.  This is just plain being honorable. 

With that being said, the things about Ray's teaching I disagree with, even after hours of reading his stuff (which i have done, not casually at all), I prefer to keep to myself as far as this forum goes and pursue by some other avenue.   It is not my job to "straighten anybody out", as some may have tried to do.  That is the work of the Holy Spirit of God to do, IMHO.

Peace to all,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

When I signed up for this forum, I agreed to abide by certain rules.  Maybe there are some of the rules I have a little trouble agreeing with on principal (being the rebel that I am ), but I did agree to abide by them.  It is not my forum, so I respect the rules.  This is just plain being honorable. 

Hi Joe,

Actually this is all we (as moderators) ask, your take on this is both an honorable and mature approach. Ray does not say or think or believe he has a corner on the market of spiritual truth but he does have plenty of scriptural authority or witnesses if you prefer to back up the articles he has written and that is the reason this Forum was established, primarily to discuss the articles.

With that being said, the things about Ray's teaching I disagree with, even after hours of reading his stuff (which i have done, not casually at all), I prefer to keep to myself as far as this forum goes and pursue by some other avenue.   

If you are seeking clarification or even justification for what Ray is teaching perhaps you could email him with your question/observation/disagreement, you don't have to use your name but it might help if you mention in the subject line that you are a member of the Forum, it could expedite a quick(er) response.

Thank you for you honest and thoughtful post.

Peace,

Joe

[Samson]

When I signed up for this forum, I agreed to abide by certain rules.  Maybe there are some of the rules I have a little trouble agreeing with on principal (being the rebel that I am ), but I did agree to abide by them.  It is not my forum, so I respect the rules.  This is just plain being honorable. 

Hi Joe,

Actually this is all we (as moderators) ask, your take on this is both an honorable and mature approach. Ray does not say or think or believe he has a corner on the market of spiritual truth but he does have plenty of scriptural authority or witnesses if you prefer to back up the articles he has written and that is the reason this Forum was established, primarily to discuss the articles.

With that being said, the things about Ray's teaching I disagree with, even after hours of reading his stuff (which i have done, not casually at all), I prefer to keep to myself as far as this forum goes and pursue by some other avenue.   

If you are seeking clarification or even justification for what Ray is teaching perhaps you could email him with your question/observation/disagreement, you don't have to use your name but it might help if you mention in the subject line that you are a member of the Forum, it could expedite a quick(er) response.

Thank you for you honest and thoughtful post.

Peace,

Joe

Thankyou Joe(Hillsbororiver) for your timely advice, I like the point expressed by Little Joe about not necessarily agreeing with Ray on every point and keeping it to oneself or E-mailing him.

             Sometime in the beginning of my joining this Forum, I expressed on some thread that didn't necessarily agree with Ray on every possible thing I've read, but in my case, I haven't E-mailed him on anything I may or may not disagree on, mainly because these points were of relatively minor significance to me, before joining the Forum, I came to realize that I definitely agreed on what I consider essential Scriptural Truths and that was good enough for me, it still is good enough for me.

               Now I realize, Whats minor to some people is of greater importance to others. I notice on some occasions, people at this Forum debating things, that to me, don't really matter in relation to the broad spectrum of life. Usually, I don't bother to comment in posts of that nature.


               I really don't have the time or desire to squabble about relatively minor viewpoints that I may or may not disagree with. My motive for joining this Forum was for upbuilding fellowship, Rays Marvelous teachings. At this point in life, I didn't think I would be joining anymore Denominations(Churches) of Christendom, as Ray has expressed in some of his E-mails to people, " I don't know of any Churches that teach The Truth. "  Early on my brief time at this Forum, I only read one thing that Ray wrote about that I didn't fully agree with, but after some reflection on the subject, I said to myself, " Who Cares ", it really doesn't matter to me at this point in time.

             Some of us could have decided to join another " Universalism " Site, I could have prior to finding this Site, but I guess that I wasn't satisfied enough, based on what I read, to do so, until I unexpectedly came upon this Site and decided that this Site best represents the truth contained in the scriptures, so I said to myself, this is the Church that I would like to join or fellowship and here I am.

                            Thanks to Joe, Little Joe, Kwelli & others for your excellent points on this Subject.

                            Also, Craig and Dennis too, Your Bother, Samson.
                                           

[joyful1]

::::::checking the mirror!::::::

[gmik]

Wow.  I am humbled by this thread!!!  Joy move over, so I can fit!

Guys, you all raise great points and truths.  I have been on here over 2 years. I mainly come here for fellowship among like believers.  I don't want to get taught on anything!  I read Ray and the Bible for that!!  However, I can't remember all the thousands of pages that Ray has written---sooooooo, posters here REMIND me of the scriptures, constantly.  I love that.  I love the questions of newbies bcz I need to read the answers again.  I love the silliness of some of the threads on the other board.  It hurts when some leave.  I too have noticed the pattern that Joe spoke of. The ebb and flow.

Anyhow, for me, I love this place, and I just skip or not comment on the debating/nit picking.  There are too many other good threads.

Happy Sunday to all of you!  God is Good.  Amen and Amen!!!

[Samson]

Thankyou Gmik,

                       Thankyou for that post, it's similiar to my perspective, I'm not interested in some big debate, it's emotionally tiring for me and it doesn't build me up. I know that it's a worn out statement, but THIS LIFE IS TOO SHORT. With all of this in mind, recently, I removed one of my own posts, because I made reference to a former relation and decided, What if they eventually to this Site and view that comment, it might discourage them and distract them from Ray's teachings and I didn't want to be apart of that. I like the testimonies, some of the discussion on the E-mails Ray receives. I try to wait to see where a post is going, before I jump in, when I first joined this Forum, I would respond really Early in that particular thread. I guess what I'm saying, I've had enough stress throughout my life and I don't want to add to it. Also, I have alot of reading of Ray's Bible studies and Audios to listen and digest, alot of reviewing and to God for understanding and allowing me to make proper application. In my former religion, we thought we knew it all about the Scriptures and appparently, I didn't.

                         Thanks again, Gmik.

[gmik]

No problem.

You are right LIFE IS TOOOOOOO SHORT!

[Samson]

Previous Reminder,

                         As I was skimming through some older threads from the past, I came across  this Gem and reminder. After citing a few Scriptures relating to this Topic, below I shall attempt to Copy and Paste points that were most beneficial from the members who already Posted.

Stubborness: From the Hebrew Word "Patsar" meaning "to peck at" and qshiy(pronounced-kesh-ee) meaning obstinacy. Strongs number 6484 & 7190. The basic meaning of the various words from the original language words that convey the idea of Stubborness is hardness, especially in a bad sense. In Biblical usage, often a deliberate refusal to comply with God's Will or commands is involved.

Jeremiah. 7:24 " But they did not listen, neither did they incline their ear, but they were walking in the counsels in the stubborness of their bad heart, so that they became backward in direction and not forward."

Jeremiah. 18:12 " And they said: " It is hopeless, For after their own thoughts we shall walk, and we are going to carry out each one the stubborness of his bad heart."

                     Below are comments that were beneficial from members previous points.


From Joe Hillsboroughriver

1 Skim through a couple articles, get excited about no hell, no tithes.

2 Join the Forum

3 Stop reading and demand answers from the membership

4 Begin teaching things they still embrace from Babylon

5 Get challenged by the membership and the mods

6 Leave the Forum

I have also seen those that do read (for a while) and continue to be positive and active here but then begin to bring in scripturally unsound things that were "revealed" to them, they are dissatisfied with the response and become a little more self defensive and even confrontational as they accuse the Forum of being "followers of Ray" and the moderators as being cops, nazi's or whatever. They conveniently forget the rules, really the outline of what this Forum was founded on, discussion of the articles, not as a soap box for would be or self proclaimed teachers.

Hello Everybody,

Here is my honest take on all of this.  

When I signed up for this forum, I agreed to abide by certain rules.  Maybe there are some of the rules I have a little trouble agreeing with on principal (being the rebel that I am ), but I did agree to abide by them.  It is not my forum, so I respect the rules.  This is just plain being honorable.  

With that being said, the things about Ray's teaching I disagree with, even after hours of reading his stuff (which i have done, not casually at all), I prefer to keep to myself as far as this forum goes and pursue by some other avenue.   It is not my job to "straighten anybody out", as some may have tried to do.  That is the work of the Holy Spirit of God to do, IMHO.

Peace to all,

Joe

From Craig

Great points.  Members pay attention to what Joe says.  The forum is like a cassette tape on a loop.  The same circumstances happen over and over.  Sort of like a country music song,  man buys truck, dog dies, woman cheats, woman takes everything, man wrecks truck   On the forum the names change and the order changes but we always end back at the beginning over and over.  The forum has shown me alot about human behavior as I'm sure most of you old timers would agree.

From Marques

Every week, someone (usually a newbie or whatever the next step up is) makes a point about whatever issue they feel scripture is stating, a few mods and others will show that they are somewhat off in their analysis (all using multiple scripture by the way) and then that someone refuses to humble themselves and goes on a small tangent about how they are not wrong. This is the furthest thing from loving one another. I am not trying to preach, but it is discouraging for everyone when we all come to read, study, and discuss scripture and someone wants to pound their message into the ground and go tit for tat with one another. If you truly feel you are right, why can't you stay humble and just agree to disagree? Why do you feel you have this all knowing understanding and no one can turn you from? This goes along with Ray's teachings about idols of the heart. We have to let that stubborness and pride go. No one really knows it all.


Just thought this would be a good reminder, not meant as an attack on anyone in particular, applies to me, too. Remember when Posting, out of the mouth of two or three witnesses a matter is firmly established.

                              Kind Regards, Samson.[/color]

[Craig]

Good old piece of silverware to get out and polish Samson.

The forum is like a cassette tape on a loop.

As we have matured the tape has went from a 60 minute cassette to a 90 minute one, that is good.

Craig

[Linny]

Nice reminder guys.
One thing is for sure. The only person I agree with 100% is me. I don't require agreement with anyone else I love, why would I need it here on the forum? We are all works in progress and I am constantly reminded of the false things I have believed in the past. I don't beat myself up and so I shouldn't beat anyone else up either. As much as I've had to unteach my own children, it becomes easier to say, "I am not necessarily right about everything, but this is what I believe. You must do your own study and who knows what you may teach me." I have had to learn to be more and more open-minded and ready to learn.
Thanks for the heads up on the possibility of people coming in to set us straight. I don't want to be cynical but that is not something I look for.

Lin

[onelovedread]

Amen to that, Marques.
It surely does not demonstate love when we try to beat each other over the head with the "truth" we think we have.