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Author Topic: About God  (Read 11043 times)

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elias3013

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About God
« on: January 09, 2010, 04:50:34 PM »

I have heard God being described as having the following traits.

Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience.

Scriptural backup for these traits, I find as follows:

Omnipotent: Rev 19:6
Omnipresent: Psa 129

But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.

I would agree that God knows the beginning, for He started it and knows the end because He will end it, but I question that he knows in advance everything that every person will say or do.

If He does then why would He repent of making mankind then destroying it with a flood?

And if He knew in advance that the Israelites would sin in the wilderness, then why did He want to destroy them and start over with Moses?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ron
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EKnight

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Re: About God
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2010, 05:18:18 PM »



[/quote]But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.



Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ron
[/quote]

How can God declare the end from the beginning and not know everything in between?

And as far as repenting of making man, I believe Ray says the use of the word repent here simply means God felt sorrowful.  I just don't know exactly where to find what Ray said in all of his writing but I am sure someone else can readily find it.

Eileen
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mharrell08

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Re: About God
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2010, 05:52:44 PM »

I have heard God being described as having the following traits.

Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience.

Scriptural backup for these traits, I find as follows:

Omnipotent: Rev 19:6
Omnipresent: Psa 129

But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.

I would agree that God knows the beginning, for He started it and knows the end because He will end it, but I question that he knows in advance everything that every person will say or do.

If He does then why would He repent of making mankind then destroying it with a flood?

And if He knew in advance that the Israelites would sin in the wilderness, then why did He want to destroy them and start over with Moses?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Ron


Ron,

Eileen is right as are the scriptures...one can't declare the end AND bring it to pass [Isa 46:10-11] without having the foreknowledge to do it.

Excerpt from May '08 Bible Study, 'Does a Sovereign God ever Change?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html):

Does the phrase “God repented” in Gen. 6:6 contradict the phrase “He is not a man that He should repent,” in Num. 23:19?  Well what saith thou, what do you think?  Is that a contradiction?  He repented and He doesn’t repent, is that a contradiction?  Absolutely it’s a contradiction. 

A contradiction can not be true.  A contradiction is stating two things that can not harmonize.  Like the paper was white and the paper was black.  It could have had black on the white, but if the paper was white then the paper was not also black.  That’s a contradiction.

If God repented, but the Scriptures say He doesn’t repent, that’s a contradiction.  How are we going to solve this?  [answer: is it the wrong word?]  Well at least you can’t use the same word twice.  If you say it is this and it isn’t this, then you can’t use the same word. Could the word be used in one place or the other?  No I don’t think so, because this word has more than one meaning.  Instead of saying repenting the Concordant version has…

Gen 6:6 And regretting is Yahweh Elohim that He made humanity on the earth…  (CLV)

Num 23:19 El is not a man that He should lie.  Nor a son of humanity that He should feel regret…  (CLV)

So they changed the word repent to “regret.”  But one verse says He regretted and the other one says He doesn’t regret.  So you still have a contradiction.  Even with Concordant, as good as they are, I still find they have problems sometimes.

That same statement is repeated in I Samuel 15.

1Sam 15:29  And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent.


         GOD KNEW MAN WOULD DO THE SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN:

So why is He regretting that He didn’t wipe them out?  Is that going to solve the problem?  Well God says okay they’re all wicked and evil continually (Gen 6:5).  The thought of their imagination is nothing but bad all the time, I’ll just wipe them out.  I’ll start with Noah and your sons and wives will start a new world.  But will that solve the problem?  No.  Does God know the end from the beginning?  Yes.  Did He know that His Son would prophesy one day by saying…

Mat 24:37  But as the days of Noah were, SO shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

As bad as it was back then?  He said “So shall” it be.  It’s going to be like that again.  So did God solve His problem here by repenting and saying now I’ll do this?  Now you are adding insult to injury.  Not only did He change His mind about making humanity, then He says I’ll wipe them out and we find out it didn’t help, the human race will turn out the same way they were back then.

If you don’t believe the Scriptures and you start following these human traditions, you just get all kinds of problems.  That’s why people write me emails like that.  ‘RAY CAN’T YOU SEE GOD CHANGES HIS MIND, CAN’T YOU SEE IT!’ 

Unfortunately this word repent or regret, even sorry has come to mean that something is not the way you wanted it to be.  Now you’re sorry, now you regret whatever it was.  Now you repent, you change your mind about the whole thing.  But God doesn’t change His mind, God doesn’t repent.  Well what is this talking about here then? 

“Regretting is Yahweh Elohim that He made the human race” and it repented the Lord that He made them.  It grieved Him in His heart or it repented Him that He made them.  (Gen. 6:6)

Well there is more going on here than meets the eye.  If I ask everybody in here to close your Bible and tell me basically what is God doing here in this verse?  What does He say He’s going to do?  He's showing anger towards the human race… what is He doing?
 
[answer: Because He wants to destroy all of mankind]  Why?  [Because they think evil all the time]  Anyone else?  [Because he’s going to repent]  Yes, it says He repents and the reason is because man is evil and He is going to destroy them.  [He's going to change the world]  Well yes, but it is going to degenerate mighty fast again.  Because it wasn’t long after the flood that they were building the tower of Babel.  But there is more in this verse.  There is a problem and God is going to wipe out humanity except for Noah and his family, what else? 

See most people read the Scripture and they don’t pay attention to the words, that’s why I say that.  PAY ATTENTION TO THE ALL WORDS.  There is a whole lot more going on in all these Scriptures, all of them!  We learn certain key phrase from Scriptures and we can read that Scripture a thousand times and all we see is that key phrase that we were taught as children, but we never see the rest. 

So He is going to destroy mankind… let’s read it for the first time.  Now I’m not going into this today, because I don’t have time to explain it all and I don’t have a full explanation, only a partial answer to it.

Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
v. 7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents Me that I have made them.

What?  Why would He repent of making animals?  See you never saw that before, did you?  He says, ‘I’m not only going to kill mankind, I’m going to kill the animals.  I’m going to repent of ever making them.’  Look at my little Tabby, He says He’s going to repent of making my little Tabby, that wicked evil Tabby? 

There is always a lot more going on in the Scriptures.  That’s why sometimes people learn two or three truths and they confront their minister and they think they are going to back him into a corner and make a fool out of him.  But they always gets made a fool out of themselves. 

There is a lot more going on in the Scriptures, but we don’t see it.  Wait until I go through Genesis 1 at the conference, there is more going on there than you might realize.  But you have got to look at all the words.  Because didn’t you notice this and then did you notice this and did you notice this.  We have this this this and this, six times, did you notice it and you say, ‘no I never noticed that.’

So people have a feeling about these words, repent means… like we are suppose to repent.  That means to change your mind and change your heart, turn around and go the other way.  Make a big change in your life.  God repents too?  So I guess He does all of that, repents of all His evil and all His sins and all this stuff?  Then He is going to change His life and go a different direction?  You will say, ‘No God doesn’t do that.’  Well you think He repents, so what do you think God does when He repents? 

It’s like this guy from the email says, He feels sorry, He regrets the fact that He ever made them.  He is saying in effect I wish I had not made them, I regret it.  Is that what He is saying?  And is this then making a liar out of God?  He does repent, so He’s just like a man.  He screws up, He does something that doesn’t turn out right and He repents of it just like a man?

I heard John Hagee say once… he was talking about the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve and he said, ‘God never intended (that’s the word he used) for them to sin or disobey.’  Oh really and do you think God lies?  Do you think God never knows the end from the beginning?  Do you think God changes?  That He had one plan for them, but after they disobeyed then He went to plan B, is that what you think about God?  You blaspheme!  You don’t love God, you don’t have respect for God, you despise the word of God.

God says He knew that they would sin, from the beginning He knew that (Isa. 46:10).  Hagee says God never intended that such a thing would happen.  Lying false deceiving hypocrites.

Now the definition of  ‘nacham,’ that’s the word translated perish.       
Strong’s #5162 nacham means to sigh, that is breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is…  What is?  Sorry is.  What he is saying is, here’s what we mean by saying what it means to be sorry, do you follow?  Here’s what we mean by saying sorry, that is… (in a favorable sense) to pity or console.  That how it is used in a favorable sense.  Comfort (self), ease (one’s self), repent (-er, -ing, self) 

Can this word repent be used in a favorable sense so that we can apply it to God?  What do you think?  Yes.  Now there is the definition and I contended that at least most times the first statements defining a word are the most profound or the most used and so on.  Then they bring on A B C D and other ways that it is used in different ways, but there is the main meaning right up front.

Did you notice the words, “to be sorry, that is, (in a FAVORABLE sense) to pity, console… comfort?” 

Here is something that amazed me when I did the research on this the last couple of days.  This word for nacham appears about 110 and it is translated to repent 37 times.  Now I know that the future, infinitive tense and the participial are ways the words are used, but I’m going to shorten this down.  I don’t understand all of that either, I’m starting to learn some of it.  It’s just a lot to learn. 

I wish I did understand Hebrew and Greek, but in another way I’m glad I don’t.  You know why?  Because if I understood Hebrew and Greek and was a scholar and everything else.  Then it’s like, well you know, the only way you can understand the Bible is you’ve got to be a scholar.  But nobody could be a roofer, like me and know these things.  You know how could a roofer know these things?  People say, ‘what are your credentials Ray.’  I say, ‘I don’t have any, what are yours?’  I do claim one, I say, ‘I have the Spirit of God.  What else do you want to know?’

So we see that this word ‘nacham’ can be used in a favorable sense, to be sorry.  Here’s what we mean by sorry - to show pity, sympathy, mercy, comfort etc. So that is how it can be used.  The word itself is used 37 times, translated as repent in the Hebrew Scripture.  But guess what?  It’s translated 70 times on the favorable side; to comfort or be comforted or comforting.  That’s double, a hundred percent more times it‘s translated in some form of comfort. 

So why do we have this one track mind, that this word can only mean to change your mind?  God repented - He changed His mind, He made a mistake, ‘I’m sorry I ever created them, I screwed up, I repent I should have never done it what a big dummy I am.’  Come on that’s blasphemy.  They won't put it quite in those derogatory terms, but they will say, ‘Well He changed His mind, it didn’t turn out right and He was sorry and He repented for ever doing it.’  It’s as though He didn’t even know it would happen.  It’s like He said, ‘look at this, who would have ever thought.’  Well certainly not you God, I’m sure You would have never thought this could have happened.  I mean You are only… God !?  Can you not see where these teachings are not only wrong and unscriptural, but they demean God and they are blasphemous!



Hope this helps,

Marques
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elias3013

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Re: About God
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2010, 04:34:02 PM »

Marques

Thanks for the response, but that's really confusing.

If God repented in a favorable sense, He wouldn't have destroyed them, so His repentence had to have been in an unfavorable sense. It must mean that things didn't turn out the way He intended so He started over with Noah.

Just like He repented about making Saul the King, so He removed him and chose David.

If we just look at the scripture and not introduce opinions and suppositions, the truth will be seen.

There are more scriptures that state God changed His mind, than scriptures that state He doesn't.

That's the way I see it.

Ron
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mharrell08

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Re: About God
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2010, 04:54:52 PM »

Marques

Thanks for the response, but that's really confusing.

If God repented in a favorable sense, He wouldn't have destroyed them, so His repentence had to have been in an unfavorable sense. It must mean that things didn't turn out the way He intended so He started over with Noah.

God repenting does not mean God wishing He had not done something. It means to be sorrow or feel pity of whatever situation that He is speaking of. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked [Ezek 33:11] yet death is a part of God's intention for mankind [Ecc 3:3]. That's what it means to repent in a 'favorable sense'.

Just like He repented about making Saul the King, so He removed him and chose David.

If we just look at the scripture and not introduce opinions and suppositions, the truth will be seen.

There are more scriptures that state God changed His mind, than scriptures that state He doesn't.

That's the way I see it.

Ron


God KNEW that Saul would turn to corruption before he even made him king:

1 Sam 8:10-18  So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to (K)the people who had asked of him a king. He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. "He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.

"He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. "He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. "He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. "He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. "He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.

"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."


Again, the Lord DECLARES the end from the beginning AND BRINGS it to pass. I'm sorry Ron, but I don't believe you are seeing the truth at all.

Spend some time listening/reading through the bible study linked to above as well as the 'Free Will is a Myth' installments from the Lake of Fire Series.


Marques
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aqrinc

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Re: About God
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 05:42:58 PM »


Hi Ron,

Currently you are loaded with a lot of excess baggage (things of Christendom). One thing that will serve you in good stead now or later; is to do a complete brain dump, of everything you managed to bring with you. If it was so good, there would be no reason for GOD to drag you from wherever you were, to this watering hole in the desert.

Remember about 98% of what you have learned in Christendom, is 100% wrong, so only about 2% is somewhat right. Patching in the new with all that old stuff, will make for a very rough time, as the new keeps tearing the old cloth everytime it is stressed (Mat 9:16).

Give yourself a chance to start aquiring a taste for The new Wine oF The Spirit, and stop trying to pour the new into that old barrel; or the barrel will burst and spill everything old and new (Mat 9:17).


Mat 9:16-17 (CEV) 
16 No one uses a new piece of cloth to patch old clothes. The patch would shrink and tear a bigger hole.

17  No one pours new wine into old wineskins. The wine would swell and burst the old skins. Then the wine would be lost, and the skins would be ruined. New wine must be put into new wineskins. Both the skins and the wine will then be safe.
 
Jesus Christ Said, you have heard it said; but I Say, many times in Scripture. Below are two occasions:

Mat 5:33-37 (MKJV)
33  Again, you have heard that it has been said to the ancients, "You shall not swear falsely, but you shall perform your oaths to the Lord."

34  But I say to you, Do not swear at all! Not by Heaven, because it is God's throne;
35  not by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; not by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King;
36  nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

37  But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no. For whatever is more than these comes from evil.

Mat 5:43-48 (MKJV)
43  You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
44  But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,
45  so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

46  For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?
47  And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax-collectors do so?
48  Therefore be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Perfection has no need to Repent, or Correct, if you accept the Words Of Jesus Christ, then you know that your understanding is the one that needs adjustment or a complete remake.

These are all things you have heard, they were wrong then and wrong now. Or Everything Jesus Christ Said is wrong; so we can pick up our tents and go back to Egypt.


george :).

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: About God
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2010, 05:57:52 PM »

Ron  you are not thinking God's thoughts but human thoughts!"

Quote
There are more scriptures that state God changed His mind, than scriptures that state He doesn't.

"You are mistaken because you don't know the Scriptures or God's power.

You cannot understand the Scriptures if you do not believe them L Ray Smith.

Quote
If we just look at the scripture and not introduce opinions and suppositions, the truth will be seen.

So we have no need of God's Spirit to open up our understanding right? We just have to look at the scripture and not assume or have opinions and we'll understand it right/ WRONG. We need God to show us!

Arc
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 05:59:25 PM by Arcturus »
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ericsteven

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Re: About God
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2010, 06:43:43 PM »

I have a question that I think pertains to this subject. 

Is Jesus Christ omniscient?  Did the Father reveal everything to Jesus as the Creator at the very beginning, or has it been a process for Him as it has been for us?

Would the answer to that question affect how we understand the following teaching by Ray? [bold and underline by me]:

The Old Testament knows NOTHING of a "God the Father."  Jesus Christ came to REVEAL THE FATHER, and that for the first time in the history of the world:  "...The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He has DECLARED [Gk: 'unfolds'] Him" (John 1:18).  Jesus Christ IS the GOD of the Old Testament. Jesus Christ IS Jehovah.

And how would that affect our understanding of how the God of the Old Testament – Jesus Christ in Ray’s view - interacted with His people? 

I don't know the answer.  I have some ideas, but thoughts and Scripture from others would be appreciated.

Thanks, Eric
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Marlene

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Re: About God
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2010, 06:53:43 PM »

Ron, I would read many of the Chapters in Psalms. Many of them speak of God and want he knows ! He has a plan for the whole earth. You, could not even repent if it was not for him causing you too. He knows what sins you will do. We have to get it out of our head, that God is a mere man.

After, reading some of the chapters of Psalms. That, should give you a real eye opener. He knows everything about us. We never surprise God.














« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:37:13 PM by Marlene »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: About God
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2010, 06:58:38 PM »

Hello ericsteven

Quote
the God of the Old Testament – Jesus Christ in Ray’s view


Here is the Scripture that authorises "Rays view" :)

1Co 10:1  And, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea.
1Co 10:2  And all were baptized to Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1Co 10:3  and all ate the same spiritual food,
1Co 10:4  and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Arc
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: About God
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2010, 06:59:13 PM »

Hi Ron.  I hope it is encouraging to you to know that there are some who don't find these things confusing.  It was encouraging for me in the beginning.  That means there is hope for all of us.   :)  In fact, the outcome is guaranteed.

What is confusing to me is to try to think of a God who is Omnipresent (everywhere all at once) but lacks the ability to know and understand what it is He's looking at.  I would think "Omnipotence" would have that covered.  

Theological terms are always confusing.  They make them that way to hold on to their priesthood, I think.   ;)  George is right.  It takes unlearning first.  That's the first and most important repentance.  "Jesus is Lord" is much, much more than a religious catch-phrase.      

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:01:32 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

ericsteven

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Re: About God
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2010, 07:08:52 PM »

Hi Arcturus,

My apologies if my post came across as a disagreement with Ray’s teaching.  I didn’t mean to suggest that I disagreed with Ray at all when I wrote “Ray’s view.”  I totally agree that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament and I agree with the verse you provided.  I guess I wrote “Ray’s view” to make the distinction between what he teaches and what the church as a whole understands.  Perhaps I shouldn’t have phrased it that way.  Sorry for any confusion.

Nonetheless, my question remains.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Eric
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mharrell08

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Re: About God
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2010, 07:10:49 PM »

I have a question that I think pertains to this subject. 

Is Jesus Christ omniscient?  Did the Father reveal everything to Jesus as the Creator at the very beginning, or has it been a process for Him as it has been for us?


I would say yes...Jesus is not a man with only 2 eyes, 2 arms, 2 legs, etc. Jesus is spirit [2 Cor 3:17] and by Him (as spirit) all the universe holds together. But all His power and glory comes from the Father. The Father does the works THROUGH His Son...He does not need to show Jesus anything seeing they have the same Spirit. And it is this Spirit which gives life and by it all things consist.

Heb 2:10  For it became Him [Jesus], for whom are all things, and by whom are all things...

Col 1:15-17  Who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by Him
[Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him [Jesus], and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

Acts 17:24 & 28  God that made the world and all things therein...For in Him we live, and move, and have our being


Just my thoughts...it always seems confusing when it is inferred that the Father and Jesus do things individually. The Father does everything (including speaking) through the Son. I always look at Christ as the spokesman or representative of the Father, what Jesus speaks and what Jesus thinks is what the Father speaks and thinks. Interesting subject...


Thanks Eric,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: About God
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2010, 07:18:35 PM »

Hi Eric

Thanks for clarifying.

Here is a Scripture to add to your thoughts perhaps.

Heb 5:8  though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Being "a Son",..... we are yet to be conformed into His Image as a sons and daughters. We have  to learn obedience not because Christ was Disobedient, or that He did not understand obedience, but as an example to us disobedient rebellious children we have to pass through what Christ and God have suffered in order that we may come to comprehensive insight and understanding of what is good and what is evil.

This could parallel the teaching by Ray, don't you think, that Christ was not made Sin, but was a sin offering....He was not disobedient....yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered

Arc
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:25:36 PM by Arcturus »
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aqrinc

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Re: About God
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2010, 08:16:55 PM »


Ron, Eric,

Remember, Jesus Christ Is God Before He became flesh. The perfecting and obedience was for learning and experiencing what His Creation was going through First hand in the flesh. The example for us is' that as a human being, Jesus Christ showed that His total dependence, was on His Father GOD, WHO Is our Father Also.

Heb 5:8  though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

So must we be dependent on GOD in this life, that is why we must enter into His Rest TODAY.

Heb 3:7-9 (ROTHERHAM)
7 Wherefore, according as the holy spirit is saying, "Today, if ever His voice you should be hearing,
8 You should not be hardening your hearts as in the embitterment, In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers try Me in the testing, And were acquainted with My acts forty years."

The Scriptures below are saying a whole lot more than first perceived.

Heb 5:1-5 (DRB=DOUAY RHEIMS BIBLE)
1  For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2  Who can have compassion on them that are ignorant and that err: because he himself also is compassed with infirmity.

Heb 5:3  And therefore he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
Heb 5:4  Neither doth any man take the honour to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was.

Heb 5:5  So Christ also did not glorify himself, that he might be made a high priest: but he that said unto him: Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee.

Heb 5:6 (ROTHERHAM)
As also, in a different place, he saith—Thou, art a priest, age-abidingly, according to the rank of Melchizedek:

Heb 5:7-14 (DRB=DOUAY RHEIMS BIBLE)
7  Who in the days of his flesh, with a strong cry and tears, offering up prayers and supplications to him that was able to save him from death, was heard for his reverence.
8  And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered.

9  And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal (eonian) salvation:
10  Called by God a high priest, according to the order of Melchisedech.

11  Of whom we have much to say and hard to be intelligibly uttered: because you are become weak to hear.

12  For whereas for the time you ought to be masters, you have need to be taught again what are the first elements of the words of God: and you are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat.

13  For every one that is a partaker of milk is unskilful in the word of justice: for he is a little child.
14  But strong meat is for the perfect: for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil.

george :).

 
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: About God
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2010, 09:51:51 PM »


Hi Ron,

Quote
Is Jesus Christ omniscient?  Did the Father reveal everything to Jesus as the Creator at the very beginning, or has it been a process for Him as it has been for us?

I certainly believe that the Father revealed His plan and intentions to the One who would be creating and sustains all of this physical realm.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

We know that Jesus Christ is one with the Father.

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

As being one with the Father I believe He has access to all the Father has.

Col 2:2-3 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all the riches of the assurance of understanding, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father, of Christ, in Whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are concealed. (CLV)

John 3:31  He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
v. 32  And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies...
v. 35  The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.

John 5:19  Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
v. 20  For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does;  and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
v. 21  For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
v. 22  For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
v. 23  that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
 
mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: About God
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2010, 05:05:32 AM »

Hi Eric and Ron

Mat 11:27  All things are delivered to Me by My Father. And no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

Luk 10:22  All things are delivered to Me by My Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.


1Co 2:11  For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of man within him? So also no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

Christ is of God. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God The Father. Likewise, Jesus is the incarnation OF Christ the first born OF God. There is no other First born of God. There are sons and daughters to follow in the Image of the Son of God.

1Co 1:30  But of Him you (We)  are IN Christ Jesus, who of God IS MADE TO US WISDOM, and RIGHTEOUSNESS and SANCTIFICATION and REDEMPTION.

Pro 3:19  Jehovah has founded the earth by WISDOM; by understanding He has founded the heavens.

Pro 4:7 WISDOM is the main thing; get WISDOM; and with all your getting get understanding.


When finally we are completed in His Image, we too shall understand. For now we are being fashioned in HIS Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption.

Pro 8:1  Does not wisdom call? And does not understanding put forth her voice?
 
Pro 9:1 Wisdom has built her house; she has carved out her seven pillars;

Joh 14:1  Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
Joh 14:4  And where I go you know, and the way you know.


Is this a process? Yes. Jesus Christ shows us the way.

Arc

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 05:28:22 AM by Arcturus »
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ericsteven

  • Guest
Re: About God
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2010, 06:23:18 AM »

Hi all,

You all have quoted many Scriptures to prove your understanding of the question, “Is Jesus omniscient?” and I very much appreciate it.  However, what I have begun to see through a little research and reading is that the debate over the answer to this question goes back a whole lot longer than any of us on this forum.   :D

Part of the reason is because there are Scriptures in the Gospels that seem to suggest that Jesus did not know some things, thus casting doubt on his omniscience.  For instance:

Mark 13:32   `And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son -- except the Father.

The question becomes, If Jesus did not know this, how can He be omniscient?  For those who believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, the question might be, Was the knowledge of “that day and the hour” something that Jesus knew as the God of the Old Testament before He became human, but which was then withheld from Him when He became human?  Did He once again "remember" it again once He was resurrected?

Some scholars attribute this to His divine nature vs. His human nature; or that in His divine subconscious, He knew it but in his human consciousness, He didn’t know it.  Or that He gave up that part of His divinity when He became human.  Some of their explanations are really out there and sound like what I call “theology-school speak.”

On the flip side, though, there are definitely instances where Jesus knew certain things that no ordinary human being could know.  For example:  1). Peter’s denial, 2.) the coming destruction of the temple, 3). Judas’ betrayal…etc.

In this case, the question becomes, Are these things known by Jesus because He is truly omniscient or because they were revealed to Him by the Father?  He did after all seclude Himself as often as He could to spend time in prayer to His Father, at which point the Father could have revealed many things to Him.

I don’t know.  There’s a lot more to consider on this topic, and I have no illusions that any of us – or perhaps I should say, at least I - can come to a definitive answer necessarily in this thread, especially considering it’s been debated quite extensively by many even going back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

I’ll spend more time in prayer and study, and perhaps God will give me a more thorough understanding.  Anyways, thanks for the responses, and I apologize to Ron if it seems my question superceded his.

Peace,  Eric
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: About God
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2010, 09:20:59 AM »

Quote
Mark 13:32   `And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known -- not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Son -- except the Father.

The question becomes, If Jesus did not know this, how can He be omniscient?


Eph 4:10  He who descended IS THE SAME also as He who ascended up far above all heavens,

Ray has written in his teachings that Jesus may not have known the hour when He walked the earth but He certainly knows the hour now since his resurrection.  
The Scriptures TESTIFY how  Christ  came to the earth to obey the Father and put into manifestation the way of obedience for us to follow.

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
Eph 4:9  (Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Php 2:7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9  Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name,
Php 2:10  that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth;

Did the new born Jesus speak, read, write, walk and be an adult at birth? Put this question together with your question and they are the SAME!
:D

Luk 1:80  And the child grew and became strong in spirit and was in the deserts until the day of his showing to Israel.
Luk 2:40  And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom. And the grace of God was on Him.

Act 12:24  But the Word of God grew and increased.
 Act 19:20  So the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed.

No one denies that the Word of God GREW. We should see this spiritually not carnally. Christ is not carnal HE is Spirit. Christ is the SAME, yesterday, today and tomorrow…
 Eph 4:10  He who descended IS THE SAME also as He who ascended up far above all heavens,  

Arc
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 09:24:58 AM by Arcturus »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: About God
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2010, 12:23:53 PM »


Hi Eric,

I do not think that Jesus forgot knowledge He had when He came into the flesh.

Mark 13:32  "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I believe that Christ certainly retained all His previous knowledge while in human form and knew the plan of the Father, but at that point in time He did not know the exact "day and hour," as He said so. I think He knew the timetable and had a good idea but not the exact "day and hour" until after His resurrection.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Now at this point in time after all things had been fulfilled on earth and "all authority" has been given to Him, I feel certain He now knows exactly the remaining events and the timetable and by His own authority (always according to the will of the Father, of course) does now know exactly when He will return.  But this is just my opinion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 01:32:28 PM by Kat »
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