Early church fathers?

[Lupac]

Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.

[E. Woods]

Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally

Onelovedread.

   Just want to tell you, I am with you 100%.
   I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.

   EJW

[Stacey]

Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.

Hi Lupac,

In some strange way, I can relate to what you said here. A coworker who turned out to be a good friend and Brother in Christ that I had the pleasure of meeting a few years ago; he and I would get into what you mention as being "frenzies" to such a degree that most of the other coworkers around us thought we argued all the time. Our debates were high "spirited" to say the least and always about God, the Bible, what is the truth and everything that we had learned over the years. I must say that I enjoyed those days of long "debate" very much to the extent that I know that, speaking for myself only here, I like that kind of learning experience. It was a very positive time in my life. I think you have received some fantastic advice here and hope that you do not get discouraged and keep on running the good race. Never give up or give in, if you seek God and His truths; that's what you will find albeit could be different than what you know as being truth right now.

Iron shapeneth iron, its been said a million times and here it is again, there is a lot of iron here in this forum so....think like iron, feel like iron, Lupac, be iron!


EJW said,

I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.

That may or may not be true but when you get right down to it does that really matter? Concerning learning the truths of scripture, does it matter that one might learn it in a gentle way or not? I think not.

There is a time and season for everything under the sun we all know. A time for gentleness and a time to not be so gentle. When learning does one learn and retain better if it is delivered in a softer, kinder, gentler way or the opposite of that spectrum, a bold, firm way? I lean toward the latter. How does a General have his Drill Sergeant's teach and train his men/women under his command? There is a Great General coming that will be inspecting the lessor generals and drill Sergeant's and grunts and so on. What will He find at His coming, soldiers ready for battle or those in need of a lot of hard training?

One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew. If someone answers a post in a manner that seems to be harsh or soft. Here in this forum, if you have read and believe Rays Teachings, then you know already that the answer given could not have been given in any other way, the choice made to deliver it in the manner given could not have been any other way and the OP heard it in the manner that could not have been heard in any other way.

Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, 

[daywalker]

One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew.

Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, 

Lol, that's a classic statement right there! 

To add to what you said, the one thing we here at the forum all have in common is that we were inspired by Ray's teachings. And I'd guesstimate about 35% of his writings are some form of sarcasm [the other 65% being Scriptures...]. By reading the many emails that Ray gets it's obvious that many are offended by them and think he's some crazy, angry old dude... But for me, it was his sarcasm that really opened my eyes. I am a pretty sarcastic person myself, and though I've been toning it down a bunch lately, still it's true that sometimes sarcasm is only way to make a point clear; especially to expose stupid doctrines as Ray does.


But there are times for sarcasm and times for gentleness, but knowing which 'time' it is requires discernment, and this is something that is learned, largely through making mistakes. As long as all of us here on the forum remember that we are all family and that we all love each other as a family, and that we can put our 'defense walls' down when we are here, then we will be less offended when one of our brothers or sisters says something that may sound a lil harsh or sarcastic, because we know that it's coming from a brother/sister, not from an enemy; and that it is said in love, to edify, not to demean or hurt.


In closing also, I'd like to add that if someone truly is deeply offended by someone's post, they should PM that person directly, and discuss it that way. I can say from personal experience that works out much better than altering the course of a thread; especially when chances are, you simply misunderstood what was said...


Ok, that's all folks...

Christopher 

[Roy Martin]

Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.

Lupac this little post of yours just told me a lot about you.You are honest and sincere. You trying not to be unbelieving just proves that God is in control. You show no signs of giving up. I too when I first started crying out to God didn't believe. Its not teachings I didn't trust, it was God I didn't believe in, but He didn't let me give up on reaching out to Him. I tried many times to give up, or run away from Him in every way. I've even tried to conflict truth with lies and deception since I've been here. but that was very short lived like a day or so, but here I am, and here you are, still pushing through the storm.
I think you appreciate Marques tough love comments, just as you appreciate the kind words from others. I have to give you credit that you are a fighter for truth even though you have your doubts of winning.
Hang in there Lupac.

Roy

[Ninny]

Bryant...as long as you're seeking, God will give you the answers you need. He won't leave you. He brought you here and He won't abandon you! Keep seeking"...seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness... and all these things will be added unto you.." absolutely, God will give you what you need, when you need it!!
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Bryant...as long as you're seeking, God will give you the answers you need. He won't leave you. He brought you here and He won't abandon you! Keep seeking"...seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness... and all these things will be added unto you.." absolutely, God will give you what you need, when you need it!!
Kathy

!!! DITTO !!! Kathy.

george .

[Linny]

Excellent Kathy. God has him just where he wants him.

Also, our greatest blessings/strengths can often be our greatest stumbling blocks.
Two things I know about Bryant.
1) You are very intelligent.
2) You are very well read.

Now, I can safely say that I was accused of neither at age 18.   
Soaking up so much conflicting information during your searching must be very daunting for someone who is determined to find the truth. My advise is to limit your information to sources you know and trust. I believe you trust Ray as a resource and studying on your own, in a good Bible, with God's help, may calm your unrest and remove some of your conflicting information.

Hang in there. You will be just fine. 
Lin

[Lupac]

Thank you Ninny. I don't feel very intelligent. I never really believed in a sense of "Wow, this all makes perfect sense.", it was always more like "God will throw you in hell if you mess up, don't even THINK the wrong thing.". I try to be well read in anything I talk about. Before I believed in what Ray teaches, I would get on Apologetic sites, just to try and "prove" my faith to myself. (Needless to say, it never worked.) I thank you all for putting up with me. I... have no idea what else to say.

[Joel]

Has anyone here ever read Foxe's book of Martyrs, or know if Ray has ever mentioned it? If anyone has read it what do you think about his writings, and or hisrory?
Joel

[Samson]

Thanks Christopher(Daywalker),


I copied and pasted a paragraph point from your last Post, See below in blue. It seems like a simple solution to this ongoing problem of misunderstandings regarding "how" things are said and "how" a person really meant it. Now, let's wait and see, if all of us start applying it,  .

              Daywalkers simple, but important point below.

In closing also, I'd like to add that if someone truly is deeply offended by someone's post, they should PM that person directly, and discuss it that way. I can say from personal experience that works out much better than altering the course of a thread; especially when chances are, you simply misunderstood what was said...

                             Kind Regards, Samson.

[Extol]

Hi Lupac,

I too researched early church teachings as a tool to contradict the teachings we see being taught today in the churches. I came across this but for the life of me I don't remember where.

There were six theological schools around 300-400AD, 4-taught universal reconciliation, 1-taught complete annihilation, and 1-taught eternal punishment.

I found this to be useful when I was debating with my ex-pastor (before I left the church) 

tinknocker

I read this in the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge.

[Robin]

Lupac,

Before I found BT I spent 30 years trying to prove Hell wrong in scripture and couldn't do it because the words everlasting and eternal stopped me dead in my tracks. I had no answer for those words. When I found BT Ray explained it perfectly. I had the proof, but I was still afraid to believe it because of all the fear the churches had instilled in me. I spent 2 weeks sick in bed until God finally set me free from the fear.

Believing there is no hell really gave me peace, but it didn't change any part of the process and didn't let me off the hook at all. If you are trying to get off the hook by believing in no hell it will not help. We must all have the experience of good and evil and we must all face judgment either now or later. There is no way around it.

Isaiah 26:9
My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 (New International Version)

14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
      including every hidden thing,
      whether it is good or evil.


Romans 14:10 (New International Version)

10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 (New International Version)

5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

1 Peter 4:17 (New International Version)
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Mark 7:20-22 (New International Version)
20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

Romans 3 (New International Version)

10As it is written:
  "There is no one righteous, not even one;
   11there is no one who understands,
     no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
     they have together become worthless;
  there is no one who does good,
     not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
     their tongues practice deceit."
  "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
   14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
   16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
   18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."



Start really reading Ray's papers and study them.
It's not easy, but we are all in this together and God is in complete control of all of it.

[G. Driggs]

But there are times for sarcasm and times for gentleness, but knowing which 'time' it is requires discernment, and this is something that is learned, largely through making mistakes. As long as all of us here on the forum remember that we are all family and that we all love each other as a family, and that we can put our 'defense walls' down when we are here, then we will be less offended when one of our brothers or sisters says something that may sound a lil harsh or sarcastic, because we know that it's coming from a brother/sister, not from an enemy; and that it is said in love, to edify, not to demean or hurt.

Well said Christopher, and totally Scriptural.

Luk 17:3  "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, REBUKE HIM; and if he repents, forgive him.

2Th 3:15  Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but ADMONISH HIM as a brother.

Heb 12:11  Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.

Peace, G.Driggs

[E. Woods]

Thank you all. I'm sorry I'm so unbelieving. I try not to be. I get myself in little "frenzies" because, I'll find out something that seems to contradict what I believe, I then go crazy trying to see if it's true or not.

Hi Lupac,

In some strange way, I can relate to what you said here. A coworker who turned out to be a good friend and Brother in Christ that I had the pleasure of meeting a few years ago; he and I would get into what you mention as being "frenzies" to such a degree that most of the other coworkers around us thought we argued all the time. Our debates were high "spirited" to say the least and always about God, the Bible, what is the truth and everything that we had learned over the years. I must say that I enjoyed those days of long "debate" very much to the extent that I know that, speaking for myself only here, I like that kind of learning experience. It was a very positive time in my life. I think you have received some fantastic advice here and hope that you do not get discouraged and keep on running the good race. Never give up or give in, if you seek God and His truths; that's what you will find albeit could be different than what you know as being truth right now.

Iron shapeneth iron, its been said a million times and here it is again, there is a lot of iron here in this forum so....think like iron, feel like iron, Lupac, be iron!


EJW said,

I think some of the people on this form don't know how to be gentle.

That may or may not be true but when you get right down to it does that really matter? Concerning learning the truths of scripture, does it matter that one might learn it in a gentle way or not? I think not.

There is a time and season for everything under the sun we all know. A time for gentleness and a time to not be so gentle. When learning does one learn and retain better if it is delivered in a softer, kinder, gentler way or the opposite of that spectrum, a bold, firm way? I lean toward the latter. How does a General have his Drill Sergeant's teach and train his men/women under his command? There is a Great General coming that will be inspecting the lessor generals and drill Sergeant's and grunts and so on. What will He find at His coming, soldiers ready for battle or those in need of a lot of hard training?

One last thing and I'll go back to the Amen Pew. If someone answers a post in a manner that seems to be harsh or soft. Here in this forum, if you have read and believe Rays Teachings, then you know already that the answer given could not have been given in any other way, the choice made to deliver it in the manner given could not have been any other way and the OP heard it in the manner that could not have been heard in any other way.

Chillax, <--- Peace to Everyone, 


Stacey,     
   Yes I think it does matter.  I was not talking about how one learns the truth of scriptures.
I agree with you, there is a time to be gentle, and a time not to be so gentle.
But you have to use a little wisdom as to when to be gentle or not to be so gentle.

   What I was refering to was the quote from, onelovedread.  " is it possible that we could be a little more gentle
in our responses?__ but Marques inital response came over as a bit harsh."

      EJW

[tinknocker]

Hey maybe we could use this as a guideline? 

2Timothy 2:23-26  But reject foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they breed quarrels. The Lord's slave must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance to know the truth. Then they may come to their senses and escape the Devil's trap, having been captured by him to do his will.

tinknocker