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[gallenwalsh]

 I'm just trying to clarify in my own mind how the elect will be kept from this great temptation that will try the rest of humanity.What is this temptation, is that a correct translation ? I am somewhat confused on the living of the seals by the elect that are being judged now and the events that will occur to the rest of humanity. Will the earth itself and the stars be shaken, literally, or is this just figurative of many problems  of humanity? Will it get so bad there will be no flesh saved alive if god does not cease his wrath? Is that what awaits the rest of humanity ?

[mharrell08]

I'm just trying to clarify in my own mind how the elect will be kept from this great temptation that will try the rest of humanity.What is this temptation, is that a correct translation ? I am somewhat confused on the living of the seals by the elect that are being judged now and the events that will occur to the rest of humanity. Will the earth itself and the stars be shaken, literally, or is this just figurative of many problems  of humanity? Will it get so bad there will be no flesh saved alive if god does not cease his wrath? Is that what awaits the rest of humanity ?

Hello Gallenwalsh,

I don't want you to think you ask too many questions, but all these questions you ask relate to 1 concept:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

LIFE IS ALL ABOUT CHANGE

We started with the word REPENTANCE. And what is it that causes this repentance in us? "...knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance" (Rom. 2:4). Repentance starts with God and is a work of God in us. We ended with SALVATION, and this too is a work of God by God and His grace:

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith... For we are His achievement, created in Christ Jesus unto good works..." (Eph. 2:8-10).

Everything from our repentance to our salvation is the work of God in us through Christ Jesus. Broadly speaking all of these things are God's judgments (setting all wrong right) upon us. Some are severe while others are pleasant blessings, but they are all designed to fashion us into the spiritual Image of God, and they are all administered in righteousness. Every facet of our lives consist of changing or being put into a new position of change. Only God does not change. We are in need of dramatic and revolutionary change.

    "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (II Cor. 3:18).


You ask questions like you haven't read any of the Lake of Fire series. Ray goes over extensively what are God's judgments, how they are administered, when and to whom they are administered to.

The signs and wonders spoken of in Revelation are not literal...these are things that happen in the person's lives. God is changing us from carnal minded men and women to Sons and Daughters of God. This requires a change in mind and heart...the way we think, believe, and desire.

So many people think that Revelation is an end-time prophecy of the destruction of the earth so they continue to look OUT THERE for some kind of confirmation. Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus Christ, IN YOU...you whoever keeps the sayings of this prophecy [Rev 1:3].

God is more interested in 'shaking loose your carnal mindset' than shaking the physical earth. He shakes the earth all the time [earthquakes/landslides/volcanic eruptions] and does that does not make people spiritually converted.

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you [including the words of Revelation], they are spirit, and they are life.


Marques

[mmijares]

Hi Marques,

I once read (I couldnt' locate it) that Ray somehow believed that there will be a great tribulation (his words were "great affliction or sorrow" (something like that))

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In fact upon reading that Ray's article, I partially concluded (I maybe wrong, of course) Ray sees Jesus words in Matthew and in Revelation are two different things (which according to most churches they are the same).

I still wait for Ray's verse-by-verse commentary on Revelation which he says he plans to do someday.

-Mijares

[mharrell08]

Hi Marques,

I once read (I couldnt' locate it) that Ray somehow believed that there will be a great tribulation (his words were "great affliction or sorrow" (something like that))

Mat 24:21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In fact upon reading that Ray's article, I partially concluded (I maybe wrong, of course) Ray sees Jesus words in Matthew and in Revelation are two different things (which according to most churches they are the same).

I still wait for Ray's verse-by-verse commentary on Revelation which he says he plans to do someday.

-Mijares

Mijares,

I don't get your point, who said anything about there not being tribulation or great tribulation. But the scriptures do not speak of A great tribulation nor THE antichrist.

Also, please point out what teaching from Ray you concluded your statement above about Christ words in Matt & Rev being two different things. Kat provided a step by step guide to searching the BT website as well as the forum (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5460.0.html). I don't want to dwell on what someone 'might' have said, no offense.


Marques

[mmijares]

Hi Marques,

Yes, I read that a number times - "the scriptures do not speak of A great tribulation."  What I was trying to imply that there will a great tribulation (great affliction or sorrow) which has never happened before.  What do you want me to write in my sentence?  Omit the "a"?

As for the Matt and Rev, I said "partially" and "I maybe wrong".  I read several commentaries and majority of them say that portions of Revelation talk about "great affliction" which is what Matt 24 talking about.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,439.0.html

Dear Rob:
Almost daily I receive questions regarding the book of Revelation. It is difficult to explain one section of Scripture here and another there in Revelation, isolated from the rest of the book. The book is a whole, and without understanding the beginning from the end, the middle chapters will be total confusion. We will be coming out with a commentary on the book of Revelation, chapter by chapter, in the near future. It is not pssible to cover subjects in this book in single emails. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray

Ray hasn't done yet an extensive commetary on Revelation so I still eagerly wait whether he thinks that portions of Revelation talks about a great turmoil.

By the way, no offense taken.

-Mijares

[mharrell08]

Yes, I agree with you Mmijares...there is coming tribulation for those who keep the sayings of Revelation [the Elect]. We are appointed tribulation, no doubt.

Here is a section from the Secret Rapture paper which touches on the differences from Matthew, 1 Thessalonians, and Revelation but points out it is talking about the same event, not different events. Just an FYI...

Excerpt from 'Exposing the Secret Rapture' (http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm):

I Cor. 115:51 also tells us that,

    "We all, indeed shall not be put to repose, yet we all shall be changed in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the DEAD will be roused incorruptible, and WE [the "surviving"] shall be changed."

But, containing heretofore unknown information doesn’t make it a separate and different event from all the other prophesies concerning the second coming of our Lord. Actually, every prophecy concerning Christ’s second coming has more or less detailed information that differs from every other prophecy dealing with the same subject.

    Matt. 24 mentions a "Loud sounding trumpet."

    I Thes. 4 mentions the "Trumpet of God."

    II Thess. does not mention a trumpet at all, but it does mention being "Glorified in His saints," and none of the other references mention being glorified at all.

    Rev. 11 mentions the "Seventh trumpet (which is the last trump of seven), but then

    Rev. 19 doesn’t mention a trumpet. However, it does mention the "Armies of Heaven" and no other reference mentions the armies of heaven.

    Matt. 24 mentions "His messengers."

    I Thes. 4 mentions the "Chief Messenger."

    II Thes. says Christ comes "With His powerful messengers.

    Rev. 11 mentions "Messenger."

    Rev. 19 mentions the "Armies of heaven [who are messengers]."

    But, I Cor. 15 which speaks of the "resurrection of the dead," "all being changed," "dead roused incorruptible," "living are changed," "mortal to immortality," etc., etc., (absolutely this is the second coming of Christ and the resurrection), but ... But, there is NO mention at all of "messengers"!

How, pray tell, does any of this prove FIVE OR SIX different second comings of our Lord? It doesn’t, anymore than my examples of different details in reporting Christ’s crucifixion proves multiple crucifixions of our Lord.


Thanks,

Marques

[aqrinc]

Hi gallenwalsh,

Do yourself a great favor, read the entire lake of fire series at least once, you will then have a great base from which to ask questions. Right now you have so little understanding of what you are dealing with, because you are still fighting tooth and nail to go back to Egypt. I just pulled an excerpt below to make a point, you will find that throughout these papers, many of your demons and powers will be unmasked, exposed and then you will learn how to use The Armor that GOD Has already supplied you with, to cast them down.

I will take a little bit from Ray here: You have been given a gift of This Armor, but in order for it to be useful to you, The Armor (Gift) needs to be worn, adjusted to fit, and then you can start practicing how to move around and fight in it.

Now after you get used to the Armor, then you can start learning how to use the weapons. These weapons you already have, another Gift, from GOD, same weapons are useless unless you start learning how to use them by getting fitted and then practicing.

One of the first lessons to learn here is: you need to do the fitting, adjusting and training first, otherwise you will be woefully unprepared when your first test comes along. If you are starting to get the idea that this is different from Churchianity, then you are on the right track. As always i have Scripture to back up any advice, so please read all the preceding words i wrote, then see how These Scriptures fit when used correctly.

Eph 6:10-19 (CEV)
10  Finally, let the mighty strength of the Lord make you strong.
11  Put on all the armor that God gives, so you can defend yourself against the devil's tricks.

12  We are not fighting against humans. We are fighting against forces and authorities and against rulers of darkness and powers in the spiritual world.
13  So put on all the armor that God gives. Then when that evil day comes, you will be able to defend yourself. And when the battle is over, you will still be standing firm.

14  Be ready! Let the truth be like a belt around your waist, and let God's justice protect you like armor.
15  Your desire to tell the good news about peace should be like shoes on your feet.

16  Let your faith be like a shield, and you will be able to stop all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17  Let God's saving power be like a helmet, and for a sword use God's message that comes from the Spirit.
18  Never stop praying, especially for others. Always pray by the power of the Spirit. Stay alert and keep praying for God's people.

GEHENNA FIRE JUDGMENT
[Gehenna Judgment Begins with God's Elect]

Excerpt from: http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm Installment XVI, Part D-4

JUDGMENT AS DEFINED BY SCRIPTURE IS GOOD

"The Judgment of God" are scary words for most people. Partly this is due to the Church portraying Judgment as a horrible and fearful thing involving sentencing many to an eternity of insane torture by fire. We will now take a Scriptural look at the doctrine of Gehenna Fire Judgment.

God is presented as the Great Judge over His creation from early Scripture. The first time the word "judge" is found in Scripture:

"...shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen. 18:25).

Actually this phrase is: "shall not the Judge of all the earth do justice."

"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").

NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.

The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."

It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:

"Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).

Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.

Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9): 

"When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."

What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."

Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:

"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).

Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.

Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:. Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.

"But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:.

Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.

Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.

Praying that you will now get the direction you need.

george .