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[Felix]

In our church we had a doctrine called "the age of accountability". It goes something like this:
If a child dies before the age of accountability he will go to heaven. If he is not saved and dies after
this age he will go to hell for all eternity.
So, if a child is not raised in a Christian home and dies at lets say 6 years old he is in heaven. But, if
he lives to let's say 7 years old then he will go to hell. Hopefully he will die at 6.
Ridiculous. Absurd. And I used to believe this stuff.
And people call us here on the forum a cult.
                                                                                              God Bless
                                                                                               Felix

[Silvia Martin]

    Hi Felix,
I was born in a catholic hospital in Germany. The nuns whisked me away for my baptism the next day. My mom wasn't even able to attend. I guess they thought I was accountable at that point... sick isn't it???

  God bless,
   
  Silvia 

[Kat]

Hi Felix,

The church teaches the heretical 'age of accountability,' that if you don't 'accept Jesus' before some young age (I suppose when a child is considered to still be innocent), then they automatically go to heaven.  But only those who have been chosen, judged and made right in this lifetime will enter the kingdom of heaven.

1Peter 4:17  For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God;

"ALL" of us are living in sin, we all live to please ourselves, that is until Jesus' Spirit comes in and shows us something better.

Rom 3:23  since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

A toddler even at the age of 1 or 2 is very selfish and only concerned for themselves, everything is mine, mine, mine.  And you don't have to teach a child to misbehave. This is the sinful nature we are all born with.  All (young and old alike) will be judged based on their works.  But obviously the younger ones have had less time to develop a lot of sins, so they receive "few stripes" or actually more like necessary correction.

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

Here is an excerpt from the article 'Hades and the Second Death' that explains a bit about what will happen to children in the judgment.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -----

                                   THE SECOND DEATH

It's time for another one of those enigmatic Scriptures that sound very simple, but are difficult to harmonize with all Scriptures compare "spiritual with spiritual" and believe Jesus when He tells us that His "words ARE spirit" (John 6:63). Here is that enigmatic statement:

"And as it is appointed unto men [Gk: 'anthropose'--human, mankind] once to die, but after this the judgment"

This Scripture is all-encompassing, universal, and applies to every human who has ever lived. All humanity must die once, and after that death, they must be judged. There are no exceptions, not even for mentally challenged, teens, youngsters and even infants. (Do sound-minded Christians really believe that when babies die they go to heaven and therefore, there will be millions of eternal babies [in diapers?] living in heaven for all eternity AS BABIES?) God has a way to deal with babies and infants in the Day of Judgment that will be quite equitable -- they will grow up to be adults.

The Chosen Elect are judged now in this Church age (I Cor. 11:31), while the unrepentant, unbelieving, mentally challenged, infants, and all other such categories, are judged in the resurrection to Judgment (I Cor. 11:32)--"In that day," as the Scriptures mention so many times. The reason I don't put infants and such in the category of the wicked every time I mention the wicked and judgment, is because there are few places that mention babies in a Judgment setting, but there are some, but they are not judged as are the wicked. They will be judged for their carnality when it shows itself, as they mature.

"Because he hath appointed a day [called that day and the Day of the Lord in many prophesies], in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that Man Whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Lupac]

I can't stand church (in)doctrine(ation). As for being baptized, I was when I was a baby. According to the church system I grew up in, baptism was/(is?) a sign of the covenant, and when a baby is baptized, he/she becomes a member of that covenant (cult? heh heh.) Anyway, I don't think they thought it had any significance to whether you would go to hell, if you died as a child, (They determined that as whether your parents were Christians in the church system at the time. (Sick, I know.)) but it was just a sign. In the church I grudgingly (Although, unknown to my parents.) attend, the parents make vows on behalf on the child. Just about raising him/her in the ways of the church, basic stuff. I don't know what I'm going to do once I have kids.

Also, my church has been putting questions from the shorter catechism in the back of the bulletin, for the church members to study in their own time. It's up to #10 now, and this is possibly to most un-scriptural list of questions and answers I've seen. (The Heidelberg Catechism is much worse, and my church also believes it.) I was thinking, what's the most basic problem in the church? The teaching of eternal hell is one of them, but I don't think it's the biggest problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the biggest problem in the church is the mistranslation of Genesis 1:26-27. Everyone believes Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, perfect, immortal, etc. Mods, please tell me if this is too close to teaching. I just wanted some input. Thanks.

[mmijares]

Hi Felix,

Absurd it is, really.

Who in his right mind will throw a kid to hell from stealing a candy just because he wanted to give it to his little sister?!  Well, not I for sure but I definitely disclipined my kid when he did that.  The good motive was there but the means was off.

Truly, in time of God's judgement, everyone will learn righteousness.

-Mijares

[Dave in Tenn]

I can't stand church (in)doctrine(ation). As for being baptized, I was when I was a baby. According to the church system I grew up in, baptism was/(is?) a sign of the covenant, and when a baby is baptized, he/she becomes a member of that covenant (cult? heh heh.) Anyway, I don't think they thought it had any significance to whether you would go to hell, if you died as a child, (They determined that as whether your parents were Christians in the church system at the time. (Sick, I know.)) but it was just a sign. In the church I grudgingly (Although, unknown to my parents.) attend, the parents make vows on behalf on the child. Just about raising him/her in the ways of the church, basic stuff. I don't know what I'm going to do once I have kids.

Also, my church has been putting questions from the shorter catechism in the back of the bulletin, for the church members to study in their own time. It's up to #10 now, and this is possibly to most un-scriptural list of questions and answers I've seen. (The Heidelberg Catechism is much worse, and my church also believes it.) I was thinking, what's the most basic problem in the church? The teaching of eternal hell is one of them, but I don't think it's the biggest problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the biggest problem in the church is the mistranslation of Genesis 1:26-27. Everyone believes Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, perfect, immortal, etc. Mods, please tell me if this is too close to teaching. I just wanted some input. Thanks.

No, Lupac.  I wouldn't call it 'teaching' at all.  You know by now, though, that when we express opinion here we open up to correction.  Most of us appreciate that and I see here you are inviting it as well.  

To me, the tangle is so dense and the disagreement even in babylon so convoluted that it takes the Mind of Christ to unravel it all.  It's important that my whole house (built on the sand) fall...the greater the fall the better...so I'm not trying to patch things up but begin anew building on the sure foundation of Christ, as and who He is.    

[Lupac]

Oh, I agree. The thing is, there's nothing we can do, or should do. I guess one thing, that's hard for me, is I've always been taught that the "persecution" we as Christians face always comes from the world. Now I see that most of it comes from a place I used to call home...

[Dave in Tenn]

Lupac, we can study to show ourselves approved, and be ready to give answer for the Hope within us.  Paul rejoiced in some that persecuted him, because they were at least preaching Christ.  I don't regret the time I spent in Babylon--not most of it at any rate.  I learned the milk of Doctrine, and was given opportunity to excercise that nascent faith we all started with.  I met a lot of nice people and made a lot of the closest friends of my youth.  I grew in grace and knowledge to a certain extent.  A lot of what 'we' believed wasn't really 'wrong' doctrinally...we just really didn't believe it.  Jesus came to save sinners (except those who would not allow Him to save them)...stuff like that.  And I still think most people in Church are morally better in most measurable ways than I am.

Most importantly, if I hadn't been IN her, I couldn't be coming OUT of her.

Here's an opinion that might get corrected with a sledge hammer, but I think while we are yet carnal, what we experience as 'persecution' comes from God.  He scourges every son that he recieves.  A lot of that comes from within as He humbles us in various ways.  Some of it may come from without and, yes, it may come from our families and 'church families'.  But we know that all is of God, and all for our ultimate benefit.  That's why and when the joy we are 'commanded' to experience springs easily from our hearts.  Otherwise it's work, and not 'sabbath'.

God loves us while our minds are enmity against Him.  That's what we are called to return to our 'enemies'.      

[bambam]

I am not out of her yet.  I want to be.  It's a slow process for me I guess.  Are we to at all try to convince anyone that what the "church" is doing and teaching is wrong?  Is that what "casting your pearls before swine means"?  I am married to a man deeply involved in our church, and discussion on these matters have begun, but I think he is just trying to convince me I am wrong. 

He says to go to the pastor, but I think it would be futile.  No one knows how I feel and I feel like a hypocrite sometimes.  When I leave-I think it will hurt many and I hate hurting people. 

I think I am just seeking encouragement today where ever I can get it!!    I have hit a rough patch this week.  But these posts about church doctrine and other things are helpful-thanks!!    

[Roy Coates]

Bambam,
I was a deacon in the church. I plowed the snow and mowed the grass and any other thing that was needed. I led a prayer service early Sunday morning. I struggled with the thought of leaving for some time. I felt led to service work and they would need to plan for replacements. I wrote a letter(under testimony and pray look for "my resignation letter") to the Senior Pastor basically left it at I will continue until I can be replaced, that God is calling me else where. I was bombarded with why from all directions. They came to me for the reasons. When I told them they always had one reason or another that I was wrong. The pastor had once told me that as long as I was honering the call of God he would not object. When he found out I was not enlisting in another "church" he turned. The conversations got abrupt and he forwarded our emails to the elders in the church so he could say "see" Long story short is that it was hard for all the reasons you think it will be and some you haven't thought of. Some tried to understand but quickly gave up as it was not meant to be. I think of them and pray for them still. God will sustain you.

[Kat]

Hi Beth,

Yes I think if you begin to explain your beliefs to your church, they simply can not understand in there blindness. You may decide from now on when an opportunity presents itself to make a comment as to how you really believe. But once you have let the cat out of the bag...

I simply walked away.  My husband did not attend with me, so I did not have as much to deal with.  I had 3 teenagers that had always been active in the youth group, but they had experienced some real problems and interesting enough had no problem leaving.  I saw people sometimes and a few people called and would ask me why I stopped going.  When I said I no longer believe in what was being taught there, that was hard for them to comprehend. Some people may just be confused and say nothing, but some will want you to explain where they can understand, which you can't. Still others will attempts to straight you out and try to show you the error that you have fallen into, will point out the Scriptures that say the wicked will be burned and where it says they are in hell.  To them you are clearly going against what the Bible says.

You are in a very difficult position with your husband serving as he does.  But like you said it must be very difficult to keep your light hid under a bushel. God will continue to direct you in the direction He wants you to go, listen to that small voice.  My prayers are with you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[G. Driggs]

Are we to at all try to convince anyone that what the "church" is doing and teaching is wrong?  Is that what "casting your pearls before swine means"?  I am married to a man deeply involved in our church, and discussion on these matters have begun, but I think he is just trying to convince me I am wrong. 

Hi Beth, found this excerpt from one of Ray's papers, maybe it will help you understand what "casting your pearls before swine" means.

From "You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"

[Meet the Real Jesus Many Hate]

http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm

DON’T WASTE GOD’S WORD ON SPIRITUAL DOGS AND PIGS

Remember Jesus only taught in parables. Did Jesus say: "Don't bother teaching the truth to those who don’t want to hear it?" That would have been clear enough. Or, "Don't try to teach the truth to those who do not desire the truth." Simple. Oh No, Jesus would never say it like that. Here is how Jesus would say it:

    "Give not that which is holy unto the DOGS, neither cast your pearls before SWINE, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and REND you [‘tear you in pieces’ Goodspeed Translation]" (Matt. 7:6).

I've had this happen to me many times by clergymen of the Church. I give them God’s Pure Word, and they spiritually "trample it under their feet," and then (spiritually) try to "tear me in pieces." Atheists and heathens don’t treat me this way—only professing Christians (I am well aware that missionaries have been virtually torn to pieces by heathens, but thankfully this is not the norm).
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Here is another short excerpt from WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS? [Two Billion Strong and Counting…?] @ http://www.bible-truths.com/souls.htm

Certainly we should all follow Peter’s admonition to:

    "…be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear [reverence]" (I Pet. 3:15).

But God has not called all to be teachers:

    "Not all are apostles. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers" (I Cor. 12:29, Concordant Literal N.T.).

LIGHT AND SALT DON’T ARGUE OR MAKE NOISE

    "Ye are the salt of the earth… Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:1,14,16).

Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there.

Too many people learn a few truths of God and think that they are ready to take on the world. They usually start by trying to embarrass their Pastor with their new-gained knowledge. Usually they fall flat on their face on the very first try. It’s all about motivation. If your motivation is carnal, God will not back you. Yes, I know, all of you are saying: "But my motivation is to show them God’s truths." Yes, sure, I understand, but THEY DON’T WANT TO HEAR GOD’S TRUTHS, and you already know this, so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them taste your salt and see your light and admire your good works, and perchance they will even praise God for your new-found humility,

You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God’s Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but loose the sale," so don’t argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."

I receive a lot of emails from people who beg me to come to their rescue because they are about to have a second session with their pastor or friend, but have failed miserably on the first go-round. Now they want me to give them the ammunition they need to do a slam-dunk on their second attempt to embarrass their pastor or friend. Give it up—that attitude is wrong. Such a carnal exhibition of prideful flesh is akin to someone looking for a street fight merely because he has just acquired a black belt in karate.

HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH

I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local Caf� as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:

    "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: ‘conduct’] honest [Gk: ‘honorable’] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).

Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.
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Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[bambam]

Thanks everyone!!  It truly does help!  I am hanging in there.  God is good and I am grateful for a place that offers truth for answers!
I am waiting now for God to do whatever it is He is planning-I guess that can be hard sometimes! Thanks again!!!  I needed the reminders and the encouragement!;D
Beth

[dogcombat]

Beth,

You may want to consider this question, considering what G. Driggs posted from the "Winning Souls..." paper.

Which is more expedient to you?  Witnessing to people about Jesus? Or people witnessing Jesus about you?  If you do the former, (like say the unscriptural "Way of the Master") then you're casting your pearls before the swine and giving what's holy to dogs.  They won't see the truth you try to present because God has not enabled them to see (see John 6:51-65.)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

 59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

 60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


READING these verses CAREFULLY. You'll notice, from verse 51-62, that NO ONE had a clue as to what Jesus meant by what He said.  As Ray, the mods, and many others have pointed out from time to time.  Verse 63 shows why they don't GET IT.  His words are SPIRIT and ARE LIFE.  Until God REVEALS the truth to someone, they won't believe (v. 64   remember He ALREADY knew from the beginning who would believe) and they can ONLY believe when they are DRAWN BY GOD (v.  65 which elaborates v. 44)  Verse 66 shows that MANY of his disiples went back an walked no more with him.   They were not given the faith to continue with Him and to see the truths of God. 
Let His love shine in you to reveal His Glory done THROUGH YOU. 

May God enlighten you
Ches

[Deborah-Leigh]

And I used to believe this stuff.

That is a compelling observation Felix. Did we really believe it? I wonder if we believed it or simply did not know any better.

I look at Saul as an example. He did not know any better until He was met by the Lord. Then he knew for sure! Like us. We knew for sure after we read the Truth made manifest through Ray.

Others are still like Saul who was zealous for the letter of the law before he became Paul living by faith. WE all experience deception before God reveals to us the Truth. Ultimately all will know the difference.

Arc

[jeetkunejimi]

Basically I just take my new born children, everytime I have one, down to the river and bash their brains out on a large rock and then offer incense up to God for the glorious thing I have done by saving them and sending them straight to heaven. This I know will build up crowns for me in heaven so that my reward will be near to, but not of course as great as Billy Graham's & John Hagee's rewards will be, so that I can at least live on the same street paved with gold as them.

I'm still not sure how I'm going to be able to repent and bash my own brains in, but I pray regularly in tonges in my closet and hope a 'Loop Hole' will soon show itself.

[Stacey]

Basically I just take my new born children, everytime I have one, down to the river and bash their brains out on a large rock and then offer incense up to God for the glorious thing I have done by saving them and sending them straight to heaven. This I know will build up crowns for me in heaven so that my reward will be near to, but not of course as great as Billy Graham's & John Hagee's rewards will be, so that I can at least live on the same street paved with gold as them.

I'm still not sure how I'm going to be able to repent and bash my own brains in, but I pray regularly in tonges in my closet and hope a 'Loop Hole' will soon show itself.

Alas! Church Doctrine and simple logic have finally met!

[Linny]

You know Arc, that is an interesting thought. I always say I believed it too, but I think you're right. We just didn't know any better. The difference between my husband and I is that he questioned it while I just chose not to think about it. 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Linny, I am glad you picked up on that.

The reason I consider this possibility is that Saul, before he met the Lord, he confesses that he was IGNORANT, not knowing  any better.

1Ti 1:13  though I was previously a blasphemer and a persecutor and had been insolent in outrage. Yet mercy was shown me, because I had acted ignorantly, not having as yet believed;

I believe I too was ignorant and my ignorance was thoroughly tried tested and proved before God let me in on His secrets.  

Arc

[Marky Mark]

 

Ultimately all will know the difference.  Arc

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

 

before God let me in on His secrets. 

Arc

1Corinthians 1:7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1 John 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.




Peace...Mark