.... he will never see death.

[Felix]

John 8:51  If anyone keeps My word he will never see death. NAS
My wife and I have a running debate. I believe that the soul is mortal. When we die we are dead until
the resurrection of the dead. She believes that the soul is immortal. She points out this scripture where
Jesus says that those who keep His word will never die.  I know that Ray has written about this, but I'm
not sure where. Please, help.
                                                                                                          God Bless
                                                                                                           Felix

[Lupac]

It's all in the LoF part 16C.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

It's too long to quote, but he explains what other verses like that one mean. John 11:26:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

It should read:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall not be dieing to the age. Believest thou this?

The King James translators left out two words, that contradict tons of scripture. Show your wife this verse in Ezekiel 18:4:

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

[Linny]

Since we know that the Word will not contradict itself, let's look at another verse...
Joh 11:25  Jesus then said, "I am the one who raises the dead to life! Everyone who has faith in me will live, even if they die.
Now this obviously contradicts the verse in the translation you used. So let's look at it in another literal translation...
John 8:51(CLV) Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon."
The word tranlated never in your translation comes from this word aion. See below.

aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.


Hope this helps.
Lin

[Kat]

Hi Felix,

Well we can look at other places where Christ speaks of this, as we know "The sum of Thy word is truth" (Psa 119:160 ).

John 8:51  verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep My word, death he may not see--to the age.' (YLT)

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you: If anyone shall keep, my word, death, shall he not see, unto times age-abiding. (Rotherham)

John 5:24  `Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing My word, and is believing Him who sent Me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (YLT)

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that heareth, my word, and believeth in him that sent me, hath life age-abiding, and, into judgment, cometh not, but hath passed over, out of death into life. (Rotherham)

We know that He is speaking of the next age when He say "life age-during/abiding" in verse 24.

John 11:25  Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in Me, even if he may die, shall live;
v. 26  and every one who is living and believing in Me shall not die--to the age; (YLT)

What seems to be a key statement in these Scriptures that speak of not seeing death, is the next phrase "to the age."  Now if Christ was referring to this present age, wouldn't He have said 'this' age, the one that was present at the time?  It seems to me He must have been referring "to the age" to come, when all must be judged and must crucify/die to the flesh. Except of course the Elect who have already been judged/crucified the flesh and now have immortal life and are reigning with Him during that age to come.  As John 11 shows that Christ says "even if he may die" now in this life, "as it is appointed for men to die once" (Heb 9:27), but He goes on to say about the Believers "very one who is living and believing in Me shall not die--to the age."

Gal 5:24  But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.

But yes we are all mortal until we are raised to immortality in the resurrection.

1Cor 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 54  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Felix

I have not seen you in the forum. It is good to have you here. Welcome.

To not" see" death, could foreshadow that time or age, once there is victory over death and death shall be no more.  We are mortal now. Mortality assures us of death yet not because of mortality but because of God's Plan and Design, there is a first death and a second death.

The second death is Judgment.

Death is part of the Plan of God for each individual to pass.

What your wife believes thinks, assumes, understands or has faith in is what only God can change. Debating never changes, repents or converts anyone.

Arc

[DougE6]

Hello Felix

This is a very emotional topic for most people.  It is very possible that your wife is very committed to her point of view, deep inside.  These commitments do not easily change.  Arcturus(cool name) was correct, in that only God Himself can effect the change. In most cases, debate does very little and frequently only hardens the committment of the other party to their point of view. Tread carefully with her, please. Give her room to not see your point of view.

I would only bring up a couple things. Baby steps. People will not see the whole all at once. If they did, they would change their mind!

John 8:51 is a beautiful scripture. But it is conditional. IF a man keeps Jesus' sayings they will not see death.  So apparently everyone WILL see death unless they keep the words of Jesus. Now we know many people have died and kept the words of Jesus. So what death are we talking about, here?

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:   So here is an answer, it is appointed unto men that we are all to die. That is why even all believers in Jesus die, the FIRST death. Everyone dies the FIRST death.

The SECOND death is what believers in Jesus who keep His words will never see. That is what Jesus meant.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now Notice a resurection needs to take place, before the SECOND death can have no power over us.  Why?

Speaking of God...
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Only God presently has immortality!
We need to be given immortality in the resurrection.  Then we too, will posess immortality.

1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Our hope, our not seeing death, our victory,  is being GIVEN immortality in the resurrection, and so avoiding the second death, and in seeing DEATH being swallowed up in victory.

I know you probably understand this all but I would just carefully consider ways to let her see the importance of the resurrection.  I was at threee Christian funerals in the last year and the word resurrection was never mentioned once. Just gently point out to her that the resurrection is our hope, and if the soul is immortal already, why would we need a resurrection at all?
Doug

[Deborah-Leigh]

Give her room to not see your point of view.

Ahaaa there is great light shining there.

People will not see the whole all at once.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord as in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit.

Excerpts from Hell part E Ray Smith

[/b]

Here is what our dictionaries tell us: "death, n. 1. the act of dying; the termination of life. 2. The state of being dead. 3. The cause of dying" (American Heritage College Dictionary). This is really important to remember. The word death denotes an ACT, STATE, & CAUSE. It will be nothing but confusion if we do not keep all three of these in mind when dealing with the abolition of "death."

All three of these definitions are true in actual fact. One is no more true than the others. So when God tells us that "the last enemy to be destroyed is DEATH" (I Cor. 15:26), it must include every and all aspects of what death really is. Death will no longer be the cause of anyone going through death in the act of dying, neither will there be any more dead people in the final state of death.

The three lessons regarding judgment...........

1.   Repentance is the result of "the goodness of GOD," not the goodness of the repenting sinner. And this is why, "no man can come to Me except the Father draw [Gk:drag] him" (John 6:44).

2.   Did Jesus say that Sodom could have saved themselves and remain until this day if they so desired, or did He say that had His mighty works been done in Sodom it would have remained until this day? That was a question? Don't just keep reading--answer the question! NO, not to me, to YOU, in your HEART, and in your MIND, and in your SPIRIT.........Jesus did not say that had such mighty works been done in Sodom, then they would have had a "chance" to repent, be saved, and "remain until this day." No, Jesus said that "It WOULD have remained until this day."

3.   Jesus was declaring to Capernaum and other cities which refused to obey His call for repentance, that they would be brought down to death individually, and collectively as great and exalted cities. This happened--everyone in these cities has died and the cities themselves died. Now all that remains for them is their resurrection to judgment, in "the DAY OF JUDGMENT."
"Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead" (Acts 17:31).

When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God. Aspects of this Judgment:

Unquote:

Therefore the mortal soul needs resurrection to life with Christ.
The mortal soul putting on immortality IS the resurrection.....to Life with Christ.

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:.

Arc

[Marky Mark]

Good replys all. Just to add, to the mix, if you will. 


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:.

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?





Peace...Mark