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[arion]

I believe that Satan was not a perfect being that fell as obviously he was a murderer from the beginning  (Joh8:44).  Yet we have scripture where Jesus said that he behold Satan fall as lightning from heaven.


Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


We also have other scriptures that seem to indicate (or so it's argued) that other angels fell as well.

2Pe 2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


How do we reconcile this?  I'm sure Ray has talked about it in the teachings but not sure where to look.  Any help?

[Kat]

Hi Arion,

Here is an excerpt which explains the verse in Luke 10.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ----

                 I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTNING FALL FROM HEAVEN

Now for one of the most amazing symbol identifications found anywhere in the Scriptures. What did Jesus mean when He said: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)? Did Jesus see Satan fall from the sky? Did Satan fall from outer space? Did Satan fall from the throne of God’s heaven? From what "heaven" did Jesus see Satan as lightning FALL FROM? If only we can believe the Scriptures.

                      GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (II Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind.  Listen to his own words:

"At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"

The king of Babylon had a dream, and in the dream his kingdom was likened to a tree:

"The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached into HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:11).

The kingdom of Babylon didn’t grow into GOD’S heaven, that’s for sure. No, Daniel identifies who the tree represents:

"The tree that you saw… It is YOU, O king, that are grown and become strong: for your greatness is grown, and reached unto HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:20a & 22).

The king of Babylon reached the same heaven that the city of Capernaum reached:

"And thou Capernaum, which art exalted to HEAVEN, shall be thrust down to hell [hades/death/the grave]" (Luke 10:15).

Sinful Capernaum was never exalted to GOD’S heaven, but to their OWN HEAVEN, the heaven of their own minds. Their city never left the surface of the earth, but IN THEIR MINDS they thought they had reached "heaven." Now then, with this in mind, let us move ahead two verses and see how all these Scriptures tie in and harmonize together. Verse 17:

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).

It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."
---------------------------------------------------------

Here are excepts for the verses in II Peter and Jude.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ---------------------

On one occasion the King James erroneously renders the word tartarus, as hell. Tartarus means "abyss--a place of restraint," (also called "the deepest abyss of the Greek hades"). The word tartarus can be traced to the underworld of the pagan Egyptians. Tartarus is an Egyptian word, not Greek. And this one-time use in the King James clearly has reference to angels being held in restraint until their (not our) judgment. Humans are never connected with tartarus, only angels, so I will not spend much time on it in this Installment.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus--abyss], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet 2:4).

And this place of restraint ("chains of darkness") is only until we (I Cor. 6:3) judge the angels ("judgment"), not for eternity.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6581.0.html --------

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 Once more, let's look at the context:  Notice that these angels are "reserved."  Here is the definition of "reserve"--"1. To keep back, as for FUTURE USE or for a special purpose" (American Heritage College Dictionary).  How can some that is "everlasting" as the King James suggests, be "kept back for FUTURE USE?"  That is nonsense! That is terrible translating.   Other translations use the words "to" and "for" in place of the King James "unto the judgment." In other words these restraining chains last only "till" "to" or "for" another day.  These chains are not "everlasting," but rather they are "imperceptible."  How does one "chain" a spirit being with "visible iron chains made with matter?"

Hope this helps your understanding. I have been answering this same question  on aiodion for years now.

God be with you,

Ray

[arion]

Thanks Kat,

I did find that in Lake 9 after I had posted.  I try to search the website first before I ask but sometimes so many different threads come up that it gets confusing.  I was asked that if Satan and the demons were already created in the wicked state then what do we do with the scriptures that seem to suggest that the angels fell from their first abode?  Time to do some more digging.  The excerpt from the LOF really helps as to Satan falling as lighting.  Just trying to get some more insight on the other scriptures.

[Kat]

Hi Arion,

Here is my reasoning on these Scriptures. Satan was wicked from the beginning (John 8:44), he and the demons were created as spirit in the heavens and it seems it was before the physical creation.  Now this heavenly realm is their "first abode/estate" which they left when they enter the physical realm to influence humans towards wickedness.  Now of course God did create them for this purpose and He is responsible, but it is sinful, and they will give account at judgment.  God does restrain/chains them and I guess so as not to unleash their full evil onto the world.  They most certainly are in darkness as they, just as Satan, have "no truth" in them (John 8:44).  And in contrast you have the messengers/angels that serve God for a righteous purpose as messengers/angels of 'light' - true.  So there you have it as I see it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[arion]

That helps Kat,

Thank you!!   

[aqrinc]

Hi Arion,

Here is my reasoning on these Scriptures. Satan was wicked from the beginning (John 8:44), he and the demons were created as spirit in the heavens and it seems it was before the physical creation.  Now this heavenly realm is their "first abode/estate" which they left when they enter the physical realm to influence humans towards wickedness.  Now of course God did create them for this purpose and He is responsible, but it is sinful, and they will give account at judgment.  God does restrain/chains them and I guess does not unleash their full evil onto the world.  They most certainly are in darkness or wickedness, as they have "no truth" in them (John 8:44).  And in contrast you have the messengers/angels that serve God for a righteous purpose as messengers/angels of light.  So there you have it as I see it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Looks about the same from my perspective Kat, thanks for wording it.

george .

[jingle52]

Hello,
First of all I would just like to say how wonderful it is reading all the responses to questions and doubts some of us might have especially to newbies like me. I marvel at the amazingly insightful and spot on ways the forum replies to questions that may be found on Rays teaching, but since we are new and there is such a lot of material (for me anyway), that it very difficult to find the exact place to search, maybe in time, I/we will get more adept at this.  I have been reading none stop for months now and still I thirst for more and thank God everyday for leading me to Ray’s teachings and this wonderful group of people seeking the truth to learn from and fellowship with.
Blessed be the name of our Lord God Almighty and Glory to Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting [Gk: 'aidion'] chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but could the above passage also be referring to what could have happened to the angels in Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the Sons of God came unto the daughters of men and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men, which were of old men of renown.

It does not say that God punished the angels, only that God destroyed mankind by sending the flood.
Can someone please shed some light on this for me, I’ve always wondered how it was possible that the angels could commit such a sin by leaving their abode/heaven to be with carnal women physically? What am I not getting here? Has Ray written anything concerning Gen 6:4? I sorry if I missed it.

[Kat]

Hi Jingle,

Well I have been around long enough to learn to search out most anything and it is my pleasure to do so.  I did find where Ray has mentioned the Scripture in Gen 6., here are a couple emails to explain.

http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -----

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).

The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED."   The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James.  Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:

"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3293.0.html -----------

Nowhere does the Bible speak of "angels sleeping with women."  Like ALL Christian doctrines, this one is

    totally unscriptural heresy. Phil. 2:15 and other Scriptures conclusively show that "sons of God"

    are humans just as much as they are angels or messengers. Notice that in Gen. 6:2 these "sons

    of God" "took them WIVES" of these daughters of men. WIVES!  It says nothing of "angels

    sleeping with women." They MARRIED these daughters. Now then, do "angels" "MARRY?"

    No, no they don't, for ANGELS DO NOT MARRY (Matt. 22:30; Mark 12:25; Luke 20:35). End

    of argument. There is more to it, as in who were these men of renown? etc. But I don't have

    time to explain all that in an email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3081.0 ---------

It is both unscriptural and foolishness to suggest that the giants of Genesis were the result of angels fornicating with human women. First, where it says the "sons of God saw the daughters of men," it does not suggest that they fornicated together, but rather they took them for "WIVES."  And Jesus plainly told us that the Angels of heaven DO NOT MARRY. One cannot have a "wife" without marrying.

        This subject is, however, too big for an email answer. These sons of God were mortals just as the "wives" they took from the "daughters of men."  Goliath was a giant, and he was a Phillistine, not an ANGELTINE!

God be with you,
        Ray

[jingle52]

Thank you so much Kat for the link, I wish I found all this earlier, I've got so much catching up and learning to do that it boggles my mind.... however I look forward to learning God's word through Ray's teaching and through all of you on the forum.
I feel blessed indeed!

[arion]

Also a rich welcome to you Jingle.  We're just one small family here that is growing in grace, wisdom and knowledge as the Lord gives the increase.  We certainly have some incredible resources here.

[cjwood]

Thank you so much Kat for the link, I wish I found all this earlier, I've got so much catching up and learning to do that it boggles my mind.... however I look forward to learning God's word through Ray's teaching and through all of you on the forum.
I feel blessed indeed!

Also a rich welcome to you Jingle.  We're just one small family here that is growing in grace, wisdom and knowledge as the Lord gives the increase.  We certainly have some incredible resources here.[/b][/color]


my post is not directly related to the subject of the thread, but i just wanted to share it.
these two posts, along with the sweet spiritual wisdom working in our kat, are some of why i love this forum. 

jingle52, welcome to our Living room. our Safe place. and now yours too. awesome!
arion, i absolutely enjoyed your description of this forum family. thank you for that.

it's nice to be home. 

claudia

[jingle52]

Thanks so much for the welcome Arion and Claudia, I know I will enjoy all your company in this lesson of life that we have all embarked on thanks to the shepard Ray, may God bless him richly for all he has shown us and taught us.
God's Blessings!