Enoch was taken up

[Felix]

I believe that when a person dies he is dead.
Hebrews 9:27  It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement.
Hebrews 11:5  Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death.
How do we reconcile these two verses? Help.
                                                                                    God Bless
                                                                                     Felix

[daywalker]

I believe that when a person dies he is dead.
Hebrews 9:27  It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement.
Hebrews 11:5  Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death.
How do we reconcile these two verses? Help.
                                                                                    God Bless
                                                                                     Felix

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God


Enoch was transferred to a different location because he was in danger. Did Enoch never ever die?


Nonsense, Enoch died a long time ago! See for yourself:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith ABEL....

5 By faith ENOCH...

7 By faith NOAH...

8 By faith ABRAHAM...

11 By faith even SARAH...

13  THESE ALL DIED in faith, not having received the promises...


Who "ALL DIED"? ALL THESE who were previously mentioned in the verses preceding verse 13!


Hope this helps,

Daywalker 

[LiberatedEagle]

Enoch was transferred to a different location because he was in danger.

Greetings Daywalker,

Just out of curiosity how did you come to the conclusion that Enoch was in danger?

[chav]

Hi
If you type Enoch into the search box you should get plenty of information about this subject. I believe Ray has covered it a number of times.
Dave

[cherokee]

 Here is an email to Ray that should help on the why.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6171.0.html


Dear Ray,
        WOW! Thank you for hearing and obeying God! Your web site has changed my life, Praise the Lord!
        You say when we die were dead, waiting for the resurrection.
        What about Enoch? Why would God take Him just to make him sleep?
        Thanks again.
        Brother Bill
         

        Dear Bill:  We are not told where or why God transported [translated means transferred or transported] Enoch to a different location. Undoubtedly his life was in danger as he was relatively young (compared to others at that time) when God moved him. But just like with all men (Heb. 9:27), Enoch also died. Notice it:  "Abel, ENOCH, Noah, Abraham, Sarah...." (Heb. 11:20-9) all died: "These ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." (Heb. 11:13).
         
        Elijah was also taken by God and transported to another location where he later
        wrote a letter (II Chron. 21:12).
         
        God be with you,
        Ray


Blessings,
Suzie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

WE are reconciled. Enoch was transported...........

Arc

[Oatmeal]

In reply to Daywalker.

I did a bulletin board search about a week ago because I was wondering about Enoch and Elijah.  I was unsatisfied with the Enoch/Elijah explanations that I found.

In Hebrews 11:5 it says that "Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him".

Genesis 5:21-24
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

A straightforward reading of Genesis seems to say that Enoch walked with God for three hundred years (after he begat Methuselah), begetting sons and daughters, and then God took him after a total of three hundred sixty and five years.  Hebrews says that Enoch was translated that he should not see death.

You say that the Bible says that Enoch died.  When did he die?  Immediately after God took him at the age of 365?  That doesn't make sense.  If you say that God took him some time before he reached the age of 365, how do you then explain that a man who pleased God, and who was translated that he should not see death, lived for a far shorter time than his contemporaries?

And I think that most of us know that "all" does not always mean a pure and mathematically exact 100% all.  "All Jerusalem..." etc - probably there is a better example that I could use but it is not worth the time to look it up.

But since the list is so short let us agree that the "all" means 100% all.

If you look at Hebrews chapter 11 you will see that the list is split in two.  Abel and Enoch are in the first part of the list.

Hebrews 11:4-5
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Notice the fact that Abel is dead is mentioned?  And this is contrasted with the fact that Enoch "should not see death"?

Read the words, as Ray would say.  I hope that that is an appropriate comment to make.

And what would a five year old understand from these verses?  That Enoch died or did not die at all?

Then comes Hebrews 11:6 which breaks the list:
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This is a very important verse (off the subject but important enough to mention) because it tells us that if we have faith then we will diligently seek God.

Then the list starts again, which is the start of a new list, because the death of Abel has already been mentioned.

At the end of the second list (Hebrews 11:13) it says "These all died in faith", which of course is referring to the second list only because of the break and the fact that Abel is dead has already been mention; this death being contrasted with the statement that Enoch "should not see death".

I think that the phrases "he was not; for God took him" and  "and was not found, because God had translated him" and "should not see death" should be treated with more enquiry and thought.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

What instruction are we to receive from the phrases just given?

That Enoch died a lot sooner than his contemporaries and possibly immediately after God took him? 

I honestly find the explanation - that Hebrews 11:13 says that Enoch did die - escapist and shallow.  I'm sorry, but I do.

I find the answer NO ANSWER AT ALL.

Perhaps the list is not broken in two - it is just appropriate to mention the seeking of God after the mention of Enoch.  I do feel strongly and honestly though that I do have a satisfactory explanation.  I would not feel happy to say to others: "Enoch died".

And Arcturus, I have just read your entry.  Would you provide further explanation?

[Kat]

Hi Oatmeal, here are a few more emails about Enoch that might help.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,941.0.html ----

Well, I guess then, you have done it--you have found ONE verse of Scripture that literally contradicts HUNDREDS of other Scriptures such as the fact stated by no lesser Authority than our own Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. You say that Enoch was taken to be with God and never die. God resides in "heaven" and here is what Jesus had to say about anyone (including Enoch) ever being with God in heaven:

"And NO MAN [pay close attention to the phrase "no man," Tim, seeing that Enoch WAS A MAN] has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the SON OF MAN which is in heaven" (John 3:13).

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html --------

Actually, Heb. 11 is extremely informative. You must read past verse 5, however.  Also you statement that Enoch was "taken up" is unscriptural. Nowhere do the Scriptures tell us that Enoch was "taken up."  Enoch was translated so that he was not to see death at the location God translated him from. Translated merely mean to be "transported" from one location to another. The same was true for Elijah. He was taken a little more dramatically in a chariot, however, he too was merely transported from one location to another. After this incident, we are told that Elijah wrote a letter (II Chron. 21:12), and assuredly he did not write a letter from God's throne room in heaven.

Likewise, Enoch DIED.  The Scriptures plainly tell us this:  

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Who are the "these" that "all died" in this verse?  Why they are the ones mentioned in the verses above:  Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4219.0.html -------------

You state that Enoch "was taken into Heaven," and that this is stated in the
   verse that I use to show that he died. Here is what is said of Enoch in Hebrews
   11:5, "By faith ENOCH was translated [Gk: 'transfer or transport'--from one location
   to another] that he should not see death [when he was transported/transferred]; and was not found, because God had translated him [to another location]: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
   
   Now then, Where do you see anywhere  that Enoch "was taken to HEAVEN?"  Where?
   However, go down to verse 13 and you will read this:  "THESE A-L-L DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...."  Yes, these "ALL" died. These "all" included Abel (Ver 4), Enoch (Ver. 5), Noah  (Ver. 7), Abraham and Sarah (Ver. 08). And so the Scripture is clear: Enoch "DIED."

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,891.0.html -------

Dear Tim:
I will make a couple COMMENTS in your email..................
 

Hi Ray,

      From what you say, you think that Enock was transported some where else on earth and died later at some point. Where did God relocate Enock?


COMMENT: The Scriptures do not tell us where.


Hebrew tells us that God removed Enock from earth


COMMENT:  Hebrew tells us NO SUCH THING.


because he was pleasing to God. Enock never saw a physical death like we will.


COMMENT:  Nonsense, of course Enock died:  "By faith Able...By faith Enoch...By faith Noah...By faith Abrfaham...Through faith also Sara...THESE A-L-L [including Enoch] DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises..."


The word transported means to take or remove it doesn't mean that God put Enock some where else on earth.


COMMENT:  The Greek word "metatithemi" means "to transfer--literally to transport..." Strong's Lexicon.

"Transfer" means "To convey or cause to pass from one...to another." And "transport" means "To carry from one PLACE to another [place]..." (The American Heritage College Dictionary).


Enock wasn't seen again on earth as the scripture tells us.


COMMENT:  That proves absolutely nothing.  Lots of people transfer to different locations, and are never heard from again. Does that prove that they all went to heaven and never died?


Hebrew 11:5 states By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

These verses are pretty clear,


COMMENT:  Yes they are. Pity you can't believe what they say, however.
"These [including Enoch] ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...."  Pretty clear to me!

God be with you,
Ray

[arion]

I think there are times where the baggage we bring from babylon gets in the way.  With some forms of eschatology it's very important that Enoch or Elijah didn't see physical death because many are taught that these are going to be the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation (or some variation thereof).  Because of course since it's appointed to men once to die and then the judgment, (Heb 9:27) it's necessary for whoever these witnesses are that they never experienced physical death.  But if it's physical death that the verse is talking about then of course there is Lazarus who was brought back and those who Christ and the apostles raised (and those who were raised after the crucifixion), exc.  A lot of times it's really hard to lay down these ideas but although we can argue with the scriptures we can never prevail against them in the long run.

[shaine]

I believe that when a person dies he is dead.
Hebrews 9:27  It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement.
Hebrews 11:5  Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death.
How do we reconcile these two verses? Help.
                                                                                    God Bless
                                                                                     Felix

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God


Enoch was transferred to a different location because he was in danger. Did Enoch never ever die?


Nonsense, Enoch died a long time ago! See for yourself:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith ABEL....

5 By faith ENOCH...

7 By faith NOAH...

8 By faith ABRAHAM...

11 By faith even SARAH...

13  THESE ALL DIED in faith, not having received the promises...


Who "ALL DIED"? ALL THESE who were previously mentioned in the verses preceding verse 13!


Hope this helps,

Daywalker 

Wow, I never saw that. Great point, daywalker!

[elias3013]

Why must the scriptures in Hebrews be taken out of context. Its obvious by the scriptures that Enoch did not die.

Ron

[Dave in Tenn]

On the contrary...it is NOT obvious from scripture that Enoch did not die. 

Let me turn the question around.  If he did not die, then what happened to him?  Did he ascend into heaven?  Didn't the Lord Jesus say in scripture already posted that NO MAN has ascended into heaven?

Perhaps he went someplace else not mentioned in scripture where disembodied souls can live?  Do we need to imagine such a place or invent such an unscriptural doctrine simply because we do not believe Enoch died?

When encountering seeming discrepancies in different parts of Scripture, some people hear the distant hooves of horses.  Others are sure they hear unicorns.  I'm sorry that some find reasonable explanations consistent with the whole councel of God on the matter of death inadequate to chase down this doctinal squirrel.  This too is the will of God.  Arion is right in mentioning the various false doctrines that have flowed out of this belief that Enoch never died...everything from eschatological assumptions, to belief in the immortality of the soul, ie the DEAD are NOT DEAD.  This is also the will of God.

I've never found this explanation hollow or lacking.  I've found it consistent with the rest of inspiration, and evidence of the Divine participation in the deception of the 'wise'.   

This website and forum exist to discuss the teaching of Ray Smith, not a forum open to every wind of doctrine and baggage.  This is no secret and shouldn't be.  Kat and others have shared what Ray has to say on the subject.  If you find yourself strongly disagreeing with Ray on this matter, then write to him. 

The thread has run its course, considering why we are here.   

 



 

[Craig]

Why must the scriptures in Hebrews be taken out of context. Its obvious by the scriptures that Enoch did not die.

Ron

I'm not sure why that is out of context, and it is not obvious to me.  Ray has taught on many times before, what has he said?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,941.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3019.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3019.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,891.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4219.0.html

and a few other places as well.

Craig

[Roy Coates]

Why must the scriptures in Hebrews be taken out of context. Its obvious by the scriptures that Enoch did not die.

Ron

I'm not sure why that is out of context, and it is not obvious to me.  Ray has taught on many times before, what has he said?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,941.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3019.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3019.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,891.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4219.0.html

and a few other places as well.

Craig

I concure, especially with the bold. May God have mercy on us all.Peace

[Deborah-Leigh]

All references to Rays writings are food for the sheep. 

Hi Oatmeal

WE, are reconciled. Enoch was transported. You askd me to explain this.

Enoch died. All have to die. That is scriptural. That is what God says. That is non-negotiable.

Keeping in mind the edifications already posted in this thread from quotes of Scripture and Ray Smith....

Mat 26:2  You ( We ) know that after two days the Passover comes, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 27:3  Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
Luk 21:16  And you (We)  shall be betrayed also by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends. And they  (as Pharaoh did not do the Will of God, they,) will cause some of you to be put to death.

In the night of His betrayal, Jesus took bread. This is what we are doing in the nights of our betrayals. We are taking the bread of life offered here in the edifications of God's Word expounded by Ray Smith.

1Co 11:23  For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;
In the night, darkness, we are betrayed. But look...
1Jn 2:8  Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true Light NOW shines.

Jesus was betrayed firstly, condemned secondly and thirdly He rose again. He asked Peter firstly, and secondly do you agape Me, then for a second time, do you Phileo Me....then feed My Sheep.
Before Jesus was crucified, He asked His Disciples

Luk 9:20  He said to THEM, (Us)But who do you (We, you, I) say that I am? Answering, Peter said, The Christ of God.

After Christ was risen His question to Peter was firstly do you agape me, secondly, do you agape me AND

Joh 21:17  He said to him the third time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love (Phileo) Me? Peter was grieved because He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to Him, Lord, You know all things, You know that I love You. Jesus said to him, feed my sheep.

Please apply the study on Agape Love and Phileo Love in the edification written by Ray Smith.

1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

To copy back from Marks beautiful contribution, not in denial of others insightful offerings, here then again, compliments of our much loved Ray Smith. Quote...
To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom

Arc

[Marky Mark]

Hello Oatmeal.

You have to believe the Scriptures. The flesh profits nothing...

I believe that the old testament is but a shadow [symbolic] of the new... Jesus is the new and is the reality of things old.He is the Way and the Light to all things Spiritual. 


Gen 5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:

If scripture testifies that ALL of his days were 365 years,what part of the all is only in part? Looks as if the all in this case means that he died after his walk in the Faith.

Websters
all 1 a : the whole amount, quantity, or extent of...
 

I would not feel happy to say to others: "Enoch died".

Col 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Which death after living 365 years are we speaking of here?

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believer in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Could Enoch(and the old testament prophets) have had enough Faith that he(they) would not have to experience the second death that we all know of to be >>> not being judged again in the resurrection to damnation. If by the act of walking with God means that he obeyed God, how then does that differ than the elects faith? Meaning, having the faith to kill the carnal heart. None of the old have yet received the promise. Why? Because the Comforter came well after their deaths when He returned at Pentecost. I myself do not believe for a moment that the prophets of the old testament will not be of the Kingdom of God. The elect will have a better thing, in part, the welcoming the prophets of old into the Kingdom.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Ephesians 2: 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


All men die. Even our Lord and Savior had to experience physical death.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Job 34:15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 90:3 You turn mortals back into dust and say, "Return, descendants of Adam."


If the Father sent his own Son to death,I cannot see how He would not send all men to death,as it is written.From what I can see in Scripture our Heavenly Father does not play favorites,even onto death.

Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality


Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark

[DougE6]

Hello Oatmeal..

There was some excellent answers to your question and there is not much to be added, cause the answer I feel, has been thoroughly given by some wise counselors!

I am just writing because I want to address one question you brought up.  You have made much of the fact and it troubles you that Abel and Enoch were mentioned together, and that the passage definitely describes Abel to have been dead, while Enoch was taken so he "would not see death". 

Well, one thing came to my mind as a possible additional clarification to your question.  Both Abel and Enoch were righteous people in their immediate enviroment.  Abel was murdered by his brother, Cain, the unrighteous one. It appears to me that Enoch was in danger of this same fate! Of being murdered. It was NOT God's will that Enoch was to suffer the same fate as Abel, so God took him away from there, and so "he could not be found" Abel and Enoch were mentioned together because they both were righteous ones; but the language that Enoch was taken away so he would not see death and could not be found was the writers way of telling us that in contrast to Abel, God rescued Enoch from the immediate death that Abel suffered cause he was found righteous, and God carried him far enough away that he could not be found by these potential murderers.

He still died later just like all the ones on the list, and he never ascended to heaven as Jesus said no man has ascended into heaven.

The text does not mean that he was not to die.

I hope this possibility helps shine light on the peculiar language of this passage, as it was describing a divine intervention to rescue righteous Enoch, in contrast to righteous Abels killing. God is the ultimate decider of when we each shall die.

[Deborah-Leigh]

What a gracious entry you make among us DougE6.

Welcome to the Forum.

Jesus did not appear to Herod or Pontius Pilate after He rose again.

He appears to His friends and children, sons and daughters, family.....

Arc

[cjwood]

Hello Oatmeal..

There was some excellent answers to your question and there is not much to be added, cause the answer I feel, has been thoroughly given by some wise counselors!

I am just writing because I want to address one question you brought up.  You have made much of the fact and it troubles you that Abel and Enoch were mentioned together, and that the passage definitely describes Abel to have been dead, while Enoch was taken so he "would not see death". 

Well, one thing came to my mind as a possible additional clarification to your question.  Both Abel and Enoch were righteous people in their immediate enviroment.  Abel was murdered by his brother, Cain, the unrighteous one. It appears to me that Enoch was in danger of this same fate! Of being murdered. It was NOT God's will that Enoch was to suffer the same fate as Abel, so God took him away from there, and so "he could not be found" Abel and Enoch were mentioned together because they both were righteous ones; but the language that Enoch was taken away so he would not see death and could not be found was the writers way of telling us that in contrast to Abel, God rescued Enoch from the immediate death that Abel suffered cause he was found righteous, and God carried him far enough away that he could not be found by these potential murderers.

He still died later just like all the ones on the list, and he never ascended to heaven as Jesus said no man has ascended into heaven.

The text does not mean that he was not to die.

I hope this possibility helps shine light on the peculiar language of this passage, as it was describing a divine intervention to rescue righteous Enoch, in contrast to righteous Abels killing. God is the ultimate decider of when we each shall die.

i agree with arcturus 100%. what a gracious entry you've made dougE6. your post was thought provoking and spiritually delicious. welcome.

claudia

[noeleena]

Hi..
  Just a small point .
  As we follow after  or behind our Lord . the way we follow is for us to go through, wether its on land, sea  = boat, or sky = plane, we have a covering or the term used we are in his hand . as i v said before i have been protected from death or had.
     if you use the word transported . means our Lord is infront & ....we...follow  if its walking running how ever ,& some times the eyes of those that are watching us are blind or blinded ,
      as Jesus  walked right on through the group of people who wonted his guts .
    We were / are created to live only on this earth  . we can not live up beyond the ionosphere, no air to breath so no one has gone beyound  that point of the earths boundy in our human form .   alone as we know we would be burned up . the space ships have proved that & how do we live in outer space . 
  I can see it now the horses & chariot. yet to see the horse s with wings  tho,
     what we need to see is man did not have the wisdom we have now .or lost it ,, hence the different ways they tryed to explain some thing they did not understand .& even then the spirit of the person who has died . the Egypitans were well aware of,  as in thier hieroghyphics ,storytelling
  No different to day . for some,

     ...noeleena...