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Author Topic: third heaven  (Read 4794 times)

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olasupo jacobs

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third heaven
« on: January 28, 2010, 03:36:04 AM »

  It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

dear brethren, please i would like to know more about this subject "the 3rd heaven"... what does Paul meant by his assertion here. some people believes he is into astral travel or projections, others use this scripture to support soul migration thereby affirming that people move about after they are dead and other stuff. please i would like to hear from the forum what does the above scripture really teaches in line with the truth of God's word.. thanks Olasupo jacobs
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 05:39:37 AM »


Hey Olasupo Jacobs

I believe the brethren here can certainly bring to your mind more food on the topic you question that is discussed by Ray in his writings.

I am reminded of Gen 28:12  And he dreamed. And behold! A ladder was set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to Heaven! And behold! The angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

There are two types of angels that are Angels of God and messengers of the devil. I believe I am adhering to God because I am fully persuaded that I should not harm you. Gen 22:12  And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.

You present the dreams, astral travel projections that OTHERS USE in THEIR understanding of God’s Word to support THEIR imaginations of soul migrations and other such imaginings to affirm that when people are dead, they are not really dead. God says, when you are dead you are AS  asleep…..that could be like in dream state, imaginings, assumptions, innuendoes.  Priorities get mixed up when dreams take over. :)
 
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Whether God has or has not abolished death, is revealed in whether God has or has not resurrected, converted, repented, the natural mind into His Mind and His Heart to manifest His  Fruit of His Spirit.
 
We know we are not to make alliances with false reasonings and stupid apprehensions. Both YOU and I have to be FULLY persuaded,  NOT doubtful, not courting innuendoes or following after the imaginations of OTHERS. Is the reference to others just another way of saying that YOU  have these thoughts that you wish to make visible to US who are awake? WE prefer to follow Christ not dreams.

Who do YOU say I AM is, was the question posed by Jesus. Who DO YOU SAY He is?  THAT is the question.  8)

God is not faceless. He IS be made visible by His Spirit.  Following  His Spirit is  not the path of the  dreamers dreams.

We have all to use the tools given to us here, to unlock the Word of God.

The Scripture, ANY Scripture does not teach but it SHOWS the mystery of God.

Advice: Don’t concern yourself with what others are asking or wondering. YOU follow Christ. IF YOU are being courted by imaginings, then, assuming and IF you are, then it is God who is leading you to the truth by giving you the experience of the crooked path first.

Of this I am fully persuaded.
Arc
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Kat

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 12:51:10 PM »


Hi Olasupo,

Take a look at the first verse in that chapter.

2Co 12:1 To be boasting, is needful,—it is not, indeed, profitable, yet will I come to visions and revelations of the Lord: (Rotherham)

We are told by Paul first off that he is speaking of "visions and revelations."  Then he goes on to speak/boast about what happened to him in this vision/revelation.

v. 2 I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not, God, knoweth, such a one as this, caught away, as far as the third heaven;
v. 3 And I know such a man as this, whether in the body or apart from the body, I know not,—God, knoweth,

I think what Paul is saying here is that this was an extra ordinary experience, CLV has it in verse 7 "transcendence of the revelations," but he could not fully explain what happened to him.  Yet we have in the first verse that he knows it was in a "vision" that some how he was "caught away."  If Paul could not explain what happened to himself, who can? 

Now I don't know about "astral travel or projections" or "soul migration."  But I do know that when a person dies, they are unconscious in the grave and "know nothing."

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die;
       But the dead know nothing,

Paul explains that we only have hope in the resurrection of the dead or else those who have fallen asleep/died have "perished."

1Co 15:16  For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17  And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18  Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

1Co 15:57  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Marky Mark

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »

I believe what Ray teaches about the Kingdom of Heaven can also pertain to the third heaven in some way or another.After all, is not heaven in our minds?
 
A quote from Ray.
Quote
To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom
.

There are certainly different levels of Spiritual awareness for all people. The lowest[sea]some[earth] and the very mind of Christ[heavens]. My feeling on this is that there are different degrees of understanding and to what degree of understanding[only by Gods revealings]upon the believers heart and mind, can then one be made aware of things of the Spirit.God then dictates what level of understanding believers in the heavens are made aware of.

Without question, Paul was given a higher level of heaven than all, albeit from  "visions and revelations."

Just a thought.Hope this helps some.



From Rays paper; THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XIII
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN

There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).

The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:

"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:8).

There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that ‘fish’ do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).

Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

More proof:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! …" (Rev. 12:12).

Next notice that:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).

Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.




Peace...Mark
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Akira329

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 10:26:20 PM »

Great find Mark!  ;D
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2010, 04:53:44 AM »


So now,

Mat 26:2  You know that after two days the Passover comes, and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 27:3  Then he who had betrayed Him, seeing that He was condemned, sorrowing, Judas returned the thirty pieces of silver again to the chief priests and elders,
Luk 21:16  And YOU shall be betrayed also by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends. And they will cause some of you to be put to death.
1Co 11:23  For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;
In the night, darkness, we are betrayed. But look…
1Jn 2:8  Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true Light NOW shines.
Joh 12:46  I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes on Me should not remain in darkness.
Joh 8:12  Then Jesus spoke again to them, saying, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Joh 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness  rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
 Jesus was betrayed firstly, condemned secondly and thirdly He rose again. He asked Peter firstly, do you agape Me, then for a second time, do you agape Me and then thirdly do you Phileo Me….then feed My Sheep.
How many times has Jesus Christ asked YOU if you love Him. He asked  His Disciples Who do YOU say I AM? Has God given YOU THE REPLY…are you bearing the fruit of His Spirit? You are not answerable to me. These are just the questions that I have received that I share with the Disciples of Christ.
1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
To copy back from Marks beautiful contribution, not in denial of others insightful offerings, here then again, compliments of our much loved Ray Smith. Quote…
To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom

Arc
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peter

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2010, 05:43:25 AM »

Not sure if I should post this or not...Always intriguing Sauls vision for me, and am reminded of the "VISION" that Peter, James, and John had of the Lord and of Moses and Elijah on the Mt of Transfiguration. Also, the visions that Daniel/Saul had comes to mind with the angel and Daniel being to weak to stand. I am sure that many have had dreams and perhaps visions and it is difficult to discern whether they are simply dreams or "visions". I had two disturbing dreams in two consecutive nights about 2 years ago...I dont want to bore anyone but perhaps the dreams are similar to those of others and have some value...here goes, no one else was interested...anyway...  
The first a vision of a young man learning to make a "pattern" with stones that looked like long six sided translucent crystals with a very kindly faced woman somehow teaching him how but she was not really directly doing so, sort of underneath the scene but smiling and yet very much a part of the scene in this dream. The young man was a little like a younger prince Charles in appearance but yet not, he, the young man then somehow goes to war and it is an aerial war with airplanes almost like the battle of Britain which battle he returns from victorious but "wiser". Then a elderly man almost like a manservant that has cared for him, says to him it is time for him to change... to put on some clothes perhaps... but the young man seems to shrug off the servant saying almost no saying that it is time for him, time to reign as king, the servant bows and leaves the scene and the young mans appearance changes into a sort of beautiful serenely handsome man and he takes the crystal stones and puts them into the form of a flat wheel and then uses the wheel (almost like using a needle on a recordplayer) to "rub" on a large pedestal shaped rock which then resounds with the most hauntingly beautiful song or vibration I have ever heard. The vibration somehow spreads through everything, everywhere and in my dream I could feel it in my heart and my bones as part of me, a most beautiful thing. I woke up with the most intense feeling of joy and for hours after could still feel the song. A most beatiful dream unlike anything I have ever had, as though the world was already won and that by a song.
The next nights dream was totally different. Two doors faced me in a narrow corridor almost at the top of a stairwell, a brilliant light dangerously bright was flashing and pulsating out from the gap between doors and floor/walls and I was very afraid (terrified) but understood that I must be brave enough to open the doors. I opened the left door. What I experienced was terrifying, a vision of a most awesome man/being that was made wholely out of a living gold in the form of a man, that seemed to be a fire but without flames, and eyes like peircing emerald green (lazer bright) that seemed to pierce through my mind and knew everything about me. I was petrified, in the dream the being/angel was for me seen as absolute evil incarnate, and I struggled for what seemed an age to even have the strength to mouth the words "please help me Father" (help me protect me from this creature) in my mind. As I did so the man/vision looked almost sadly at me and its composure became that of the meekest creature and it turned moving away/dissappeared. I seemed to feel a sense of incredible sadness and yet triumph. It was easy then to open the second door and the creature there seemed to immediately fade away. I woke up utterly devastated by the dream/vision. It was more real for me than driving in my car. I kept thinking I had confronted evil itself and failed dismally but somehow was triumphant but than and now remain confused that perhaps I did not recognise absolute "good/love" when it came to visit. I am still stunned today at what I saw. For me the vision Daniel and Saul of Tarsus had took on a very different perspectives and still feel as though today I had missed a once in a lifetime opportunity. I trust it is not so and have learned much in the two years that have past since these night visions.
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olasupo jacobs

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Re: third heaven
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 08:33:07 PM »

I wanna say a big thanks to all who read and some who responded to this post of mine. indeed real spiritual things dont come easy, especially with the cacophony of voices you hear where you are located. hardly a time goes without you "picking" one message or the other from "Babylon"(i meant hearing or seeing a print you didnt solicit for). the audacity with which they claim to interpret the scriptures makes one shudder. i  heard a prominent minister from Nigeria my country say Paul was literally trans located to the third heaven where he got his revelation and he quote 2 cor. as his authority, that was why i wanted to know more about it. where as the scripture is clear as regards the originator  and place of visions, revelations in the things of God. Truly if it were possible the elect would have been deceived...but we have a more sure word of prophecy(faith in d veracity of the scripture).. remain blessed thanks alot
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