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Author Topic: Spiritual bodies  (Read 3742 times)

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myms

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Spiritual bodies
« on: January 23, 2010, 04:44:31 PM »

Hi

I’ve been dipping in and out of previous posts – as one does!  :)

I thought that when the elect are given their new spiritual bodies that they would be like Christ. When Christ comes again ‘every eye will see Him’ and so I had added two and two together and made ten and assumed that therefore the elect would also be ‘seen’ in their new spiritual bodies during the millennium reign. I thought that like Christ the elect would be able to appear in different forms as Jesus did after he was resurrected – as He is so are we.

But then I read a couple of old posts by Marques where he fairly categorically states that a spiritual body is invisible.

‘Why would he place a carnal mind & heart into a spiritual body (which is invisible by the way [John 3:8])? Marques’

Any comments?
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mharrell08

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2010, 04:51:58 PM »

Hi

I’ve been dipping in and out of previous posts – as one does!  :)

I thought that when the elect are given their new spiritual bodies that they would be like Christ. When Christ comes again ‘every eye will see Him’ and so I had added two and two together and made ten and assumed that therefore the elect would also be ‘seen’ in their new spiritual bodies during the millennium reign. I thought that like Christ the elect would be able to appear in different forms as Jesus did after he was resurrected – as He is so are we.

But then I read a couple of old posts by Marques where he fairly categorically states that a spiritual body is invisible.

‘Why would he place a carnal mind & heart into a spiritual body (which is invisible by the way [John 3:8])? Marques’

Any comments?


Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived  [Gk: gennao]  in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born  [Gk: gennao]  in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born  [Gk: gennao]  again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten  anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation.  But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:

"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5535.0):

Dear Miykael:
Yes, Jesus was raised with a spiritual body, however, those who are born of the spirit are "like the wind" (John 3:08). In order for Jesus to prove that He was the same Jesus that was crucified, He had to manifest Himself in a physical manner for His disciples to see Him.  He manifested Himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus in a physical body;  He manifested Himself to the women in the Garden as the Gardner; He manifested Himself on the lakeside as a yet another body. Jesus was able to "appear in ANOTHER form" from His real spiritual body (Mark 16:12).  And He appeared behind closed doors to his Apostles in the same body with which He was crucified (John 20:19-29).

God be with you,
Ray



Like Jesus after His resurrection, the Elect will be able to manifest themselves to people here on the earth. When Christ returns, people will see Him and His Elect clearly.


Marques
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myms

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 12:56:34 AM »

Thank you for your response, and I see you agree with me that the elect will be seen.

However, I don't see how the verses you point to shows this to be true. The wind is invisible, it may make some leaves flutter etc but I would have thought reference to being like the wind would prove the opposite - that the elect, like wind, will be invisible. One can see the effects of wind, but not the wind itself.

Are there other verses that show more clearly that the elect will be like Jesus, able to become visible to those around? I've loooked, but can't find anything apart from the promise that the elect will be like Jesus and therefore drawing the conclusion that they will be able to appear, like Him, to others.

Thanks

Myms
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Kat

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 01:40:02 AM »


Hi Myms,

I think this Scriptures in Isaiah is speaking of that time when Christ and the elect will be ruling the world.

Isa 30:20  And though the Lord gives you
       The bread of adversity and the water of affliction,
       Yet your teachers will not be moved into a corner anymore,
       But your eyes shall see your teachers.
Isa 30:21  Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
       "This is the way, walk in it,"
       Whenever you turn to the right hand
       Or whenever you turn to the left.

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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myms

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 07:30:59 AM »

Thanks Kat

I'd never noticed that line before! I must pay attention to all .......................................!! :D

myms
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DougE6

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 04:41:11 AM »


Hello Myms

thinking about the spiritual body is one of my favorite things to do..at least to hope for.  Maybe it seems trite, and I will get to scripture momentarily, but I do believe the caterpillar to butterfly is a modest yet compelling natural picture of what God is doing ...the mostly blind caterpillar spends all its life stuck on just on one food plant, completely terrestrial, slow, immature, unattractive and pitiable...goes through a conversion process in a chrysalis, then emerges arboreal, free from the prison of the plant, able to go nearly anywhere in the earth(monarchs migrate 2000 miles), see well enough to fly, beautiful, colorful, free ranging and floating on the winds, an almost unimaginable change when you compare the two. I can't believe this illustration from nature is merely accident.

We are now all in Adam(the caterpillar) We are of the earth, earthly. 1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy 1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: Yes we are all in Adam, look like him, subject to the weakness and carnal mind of the physical, of the lower,  the earthly.

YET

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: WOW a huge promotion.

So what will be the attributes of the Spiritual Body? ...and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I think the scriptures here in 1 Cor 15 are making a beautiful picture, just as much as we have borne the image of the first man ADAM we will bear the image of the second man, CHRIST. What is spiritual body of the second man Christ like? Look at his post resurrection appearances! Look at how he was when he appeared to Paul! To Paul he was blindingly bright.  To others, merely a gardener.

As much as the heavenly is higher than the earthly, as much as the heavenly is more powerful than the earthly, as much as the heavenly is more glorious than the earthly, that is our inheritance.

Was he invisible? Yes when he wanted to be. Could he be perfectly tangible, and look like a physical earthly man, when he wanted too? Sure, when he wanted too. He could be anything he wanted to be.  Do you think we are going to be given anything less than what God has given to our elder brother? Gal 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. ....An heir of God!

yes spirit is invisible, but Jesus is not invisible, and we will bear His image.  Jesus can be invisible when He wants, but He can manifest Himself as He wishes. I believe we can expect no less than this.

We have an unbelievably glorious future, and as we have a great task ahead of us.   All the earth will learn righteousness through the SONS of GOD.

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. ..
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Our glorious liberty is so/will be so great that the entire creation awaits our revelation, our manifestation, as the very Sons of God, as they desire our this same liberty too. I don't think this is a task by the invisible, alone.  We need to be REVEALED and to teach, and to judge with Christ. Let us set our sights on Him, so we can sit with Him on His throne..Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne
Doug





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Silvia Martin

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 11:41:38 AM »

That was beautiful,thanks.


    Silvia
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jingle52

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 11:57:31 AM »

Thank you Kat, what a lovely verse!
and Doug thank you too for this awsome comparison.

I do believe the caterpillar to butterfly is a modest yet compelling natural picture of what God is doing ...the mostly blind caterpillar spends all its life stuck on just on one food plant, completely terrestrial, slow, immature, unattractive and pitiable...goes through a conversion process in a chrysalis, then emerges arboreal, free from the prison of the plant, able to go nearly anywhere in the earth(monarchs migrate 2000 miles), see well enough to fly, beautiful, colorful, free ranging and floating on the winds, an almost unimaginable change when you compare the two. I can't believe this illustration from nature is merely accident.

We are now all in Adam(the caterpillar) We are of the earth, earthly. 1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy 1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: Yes we are all in Adam, look like him, subject to the weakness and carnal mind of the physical, of the lower,  the earthly.

That's exactly how I feel right now, but through God's help I am learning a little bit more each day. This Forum is awsome!


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Terry

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 12:03:15 PM »

Hello Doug i agree with Silvia that was beautiful
Terry
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Terry

Marky Mark

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 12:39:13 PM »

Welcome Doug,your post was very insightful. Thank-you.


Peace...Mark
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myms

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 12:51:24 PM »

Thank you all for taking the time to respond. Doug, that was a very helpful comparison, welcome to the forum and for your input.

myms
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Rene

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 01:47:45 PM »


yes spirit is invisible, but Jesus is not invisible, and we will bear His image.  Jesus can be invisible when He wants, but He can manifest Himself as He wishes. I believe we can expect no less than this.



Hi Doug and welcome to the forum.

I was following along with you in this thread until you made the comment above.  The statement that Jesus is not invisible isn't scripturally true.

Col. 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

1Tim.1:17 - "To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God,..."

I believe I understand what you were trying to say, but we must be careful of making false statements, which is why teaching is prohibited on this forum.

Peace and His grace to you,
René





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Lupac

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 02:24:55 PM »


yes spirit is invisible, but Jesus is not invisible, and we will bear His image.  Jesus can be invisible when He wants, but He can manifest Himself as He wishes. I believe we can expect no less than this.



Hi Doug and welcome to the forum.

I was following along with you in this thread until you made the comment above.  The statement that Jesus is not invisible isn't scripturally true.

Col. 1:15 - "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

1Tim.1:17 - "To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God,..."

I believe I understand what you were trying to say, but we must be careful of making false statements, which is why teaching is prohibited on this forum.

Peace and His grace to you,
René



yes spirit is invisible, Jesus is invisible, and we will bear His image.  Jesus can be visible when He wants, and He can manifest Himself as He wishes. I believe we can expect no less than this.

Maybe that's a better statement?
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DougE6

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 02:59:26 PM »


Hello Renee

Yes, thank you for bringing to my attention that statement..maybe I should of said it this way? .."Jesus can be visible while the Father never is; or Jesus is the IMAGE of the invisible God" or Jesus is the visible expression of the invisible God?

Clearly God is invisible, and the scriptures testify to that, as you have pointed out.  Yes both those scriptures say God is invisible. I think the 1 Tim 1:17 verse is speaking with God meaning God, the Father of our Lord, solely in "view".  No one has seen the Father at any time.

John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Only Jesus has seen the Father.

But Jesus is not invisible, for we have seen him...John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld(seen) his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Doesn't  Col 1:15 mean that Jesus being the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God shows that Jesus(in contrast to God) is not invisible, and can be seen?  Image and invisible are being contrasted to each other, two words apart, two opposite meanings. We need Jesus to reveal the invisible God to humanity!  I am not trying to teach anything contrary to the Scriptures, or the Spirit, or teach contrary to Ray.  I am new here, to the Forum, but I have been reading Ray's work a long time(7 years). I love his understandings, I hope to grow with it. God will teach us all.

So, I will try to be more careful in my choosing of words.
Thankyou



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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 04:52:33 PM »

Dear Rene, and DougE6

Are you not both correct?   :-X  Is not Jesus  BOTH invisible AND visible? :)

The Lake of Fire!
PART IV
UNDERSTANDING SPIRITUAL THINGS


"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing SEE NOT; and hearing they HEAR NOT, neither do they UNDERSTAND. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye [’ye’ means everyone—all of you, not just the singular ‘you’] shall hear, and shall NOT understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall NOT perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be CONVERTED AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM. But blessed are your eyes [the disciples’ only] for THEY SEE: and your ears, for THEY HEAR" (Matt. 13:13-16)……unquote

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10  But God hath revealed them unto US by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


With reference to teaching. :)

Quote
false statements, which is why teaching is prohibited on this forum

There is a higher reason why teaching is prohibited on this forum.  :)

Heb 8:11  and they shall not teach each his neighbor, and each his brother, saying, Know thou the Lord, because they shall all know Me from the small one of them unto the great one of them,

Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD


Arc
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 04:59:33 PM by Arcturus »
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Rene

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 05:22:32 PM »

Hi Deb,

Thank you for your input, but the primary reason teaching is not allowed  on the forum is to protect it from heresy.  I have personally heard Ray express this concern.

René

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Spiritual bodies
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2010, 02:15:56 AM »

Quote
the primary reason teaching is not allowed  on the forum is to protect it from heresy.


That is not an unrealistic concern either Rene! I did not mean to devalue the efforts or skills required to protect us all from false doctrines of demons and keep us focused on the truth.

Paul also expressed that same concern of Ray's.

Act 20:31  Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Thank you that you watch over us Rene and appreciation is certain to the Mods in your Ministry that you make full proof of. :)

2Ti 4:5  But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
 
I see also that no boundary or prohabition can bring any one to knowledge of God. Only God's Spirit can do that. It is also noteworthy that all members here endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace to bring joy not grief. I hope I bring joy not grief which is unprofitable..... .

Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Deb
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 02:34:50 AM by Arcturus »
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