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I don't know what to believe.

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Ninny:
Bryant, sweetheart this is the reason I pray for you..because the feeling of hopelessness comes over me for you, not because I don't think God can help you, but because YOU haven't learned to trust Him yet..Since I have learned that God is an awesome Father who loves his children beyond all understanding...It is always my prayer that everyone who has trouble believing will also come to know and trust God as a Father who loves us! :)
Kathy \o/  ;)

arion:
Most people your age are not concerned whatsoever about God or about knowing the truth of things.  If you had no desire at all about God then none of the things your dealing with would bother you as you wouldn't even been thinking about it.  Reflecting back when I was your age I spent some time tip toeing through some of the cults.  I read about Armstrongism, the jw's, the mormons, and the various Christian denominations and I as well was somewhat confused because they all contradicted each other.  It's simply going to take time for these things to shake out for you and unfortunately there are things in life that there are no short cuts to.

We can point you towards a lot of things that prove that the scriptures are true.  We have many hours of teachings here from Ray using the scriptures that prove the things that are said.  You said 'No one can help me except God,' and your absolutely right.  We can show you these things but God is going to have to open your heart to them.  The best suggestion I can make for something that you can actually 'do' (and this is something I do almost every day) is to download the audio teachings and try to listen as often as possible.  If the things that Ray is teaching us is true then the more we look into them (the teachings) will prove that what we are taught is the truth.  If what Ray teaches is in error then the more we look into them and compare them with the scriptures will show they are in error.  I've been around the block many times in my Christian searching for faith and I can tell you that I find truth here consistantly.

Kat:

Lupac, your greatest fear seems to be of going to hell, so let's review what this doctrine is all about.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html -----

I said that "everlasting punishment" is NOT SCRIPTURAL, but is based on the Latin word aeternus which comes directly out of the Catholic Vulgate Bible.

Satan is a master at what he does, and what he does is DECEIVE (Rev. 12:9). How could Satan get the entire Church of Christ to believe in and worship the rank paganism of sinful Egypt? By writing manuscripts discrediting God’s Word?  By getting men to accuse God falsely? By getting a bunch of kids to start churches of Satanism? No, nothing so elaborate. Such things are but smoke screens. All Satan did to change the ENTIRE Word of God from something meaningful and marvelous into something dreadful and deplorable, was to change the meaning of one little word. ONE WORD, would "deceive the WHOLE WORLD" (Rev. 12:9).

The doctrine came from Egypt, from where it was borrowed by the Greeks, and passed on to the Romans. In order for the Catholic Church to hold on to this pagan doctrine, so as to have almost supernatural power over the people by the use of this fear doctrine, they found it needful to find a way to interject this most damnable of all pagan doctrines, into the very translation of the Scriptures themselves. This is the single most egregious sin against "man adding unto the things of God’s word" in the history of God’s recorded word.
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All of the worst religious teachings of pagan Rome, are still in the Christian Church. The major Christian doctrines of, who is man, what is man, what is man’s purpose on earth, and what is man’s eternal destiny, are believed by Catholics and Protestants alike, and all of them are pagan to the core. And all of them came from pagan Egypt, through pagan Greece, through pagan Rome, into the Church of Rome, through the King James Bible, and into the homes and lives of billions of unsuspecting Christians worldwide.
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                                KEEPING THE DUMB SHEEP DUMB

Since none of these things which the Jews of Jesus’ day believed were taught in the Law of Moses, just where did the Jews learn of these pagan doctrines?

Most theologians are clearly deceived, however, not all are ignorant. Many theologians know at least some of the material I am presenting to you. But they don’t want you to know or understand any of it. It has been the purpose of the ruling privileged elite to keep the masses at bay by evil indoctrinations, deceptions, and gross fear.
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The whole thing is designed for effect, to influence the multitude, to restrain their passions, and to aid the magistrate and ruler in keeping them subject to authority. It is the invention of priests and lawmakers, who take this as the easiest method of governing the people. They claim the "right divine" to govern; claim that their laws originate with the gods, as we have shown above; and that, therefore, the gods will visit on all offenders the terrors and tortures of the damned. Hence, through the joint cunning of priest and legislator, of church and state, mutually supporting each the other, we have all the stupendous frauds and falsehoods respecting the invisible world."

                  HISTORIANS ACKNOWLEDGE THE INVENTION OF PAGANISM

Polybius, the historian, says:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." B. vi 56.

Dionysius Halicarnassus treats the whole matter as useful, but not as true. Antiq. Rom., B. ii Livy, the celebrated historian, speaks of it in the same spirit; and he praises the wisdom of Numa, because he invented the fear of the gods, as "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and barbarous populace." Hist., I 19.
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Plato, in his commentary on Timaeus, fully endorses what he says respecting the fabulous invention of these foreign torments.

And Strabo says that "Plato and the Brahmins of India invented fables concerning the future judgments of hell" (Hades).

And Chrysippus blames Plato for attempting to deter men from wrong by frightful stories of future punishments.

Plato himself is exceedingly inconsistent, sometimes adopting, even in his serious discourses, the fables of the poets, and at other times rejecting them as utterly false, and giving too frightful views of the invisible world. Sometimes, he argues, on social grounds, that they are necessary to restrain bad men from wickedness and crime, and then again he protests against them on political grounds, as intimidating the citizens, and making cowards of the soldiers, who, believing these things, are afraid of death, and do not therefore fight well. But all this shows in what light he regarded them; not as truths, certainly, but as fictions, convenient in some cases, but difficult to manage in others.

Plutarch treats the subject in the same way; sometimes arguing for them with great solemnity and earnestness, and on other occasions calling them "fabulous stories, the tales of mothers and nurses."

Seneca says:
"Those things which make the infernal regions terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, &c., are all a fable, with which the poets amuse themselves, and by them agitate us with vain terrors." Sextus Empiricus calls them "poetic fables of hell;" and Cicero speaks of them as "silly absurdities and fables" (ineptiis ac fabulis).

Aristotle.
"It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state." Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11

Another quote from Thomas Thayer’s paper on The Doctrine of Everlasting Punishment:
"Anyone at all familiar with the writings of the ancient Greeks or Romans, [who admittedly received their basis doctrine of hell from Egypt] cannot fail to note how often it is admitted by them that the national religions were the INVENTIONS OF THE LEGISLATOR AND THE PRIES, for the purpose of governing and restraining the common people [commonly called ‘dumb sheep’]."

Hence Augustine [considered by many to be the greatest theologian in history] says, in his ‘City of God,’
"This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE IN THEIR RELIGION; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society." (All CAPS emphasis is mine).

My, how well this religious deception of the masses continues to be in the 21st century.

                             THE CHRISTIANIZATION OF PAGANISM

When I say that virtually all of the doctrines and traditions of the Church are from pagan sources, I am not exaggerating. There are dozens of things that are pagan within the Church of Christendom today.
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There is so much to sort out in the articles at BT, but I'm just trying to give you a bit of reality to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Samson:

--- Quote from: Lupac on February 02, 2010, 05:48:36 PM ---I've haven't been anywhere else but here. Certainly not about any hell teachings. Look, maybe I should go for a while. No one can help me except God.

--- End quote ---

Lupac,

           Arions reply was thorough and covers the Spiritual part of it. I wonder if you might benefit from professional help, maybe you have some sort of anxiety disorder, I think you mentioned that you have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in another Thread, a while back. The vibes I'm getting from reading your Posts for the last six months is you are excessively overcome by Fear and Anxiety to an unhealthy extent. Everything Spiritual: The answering of questions; Ray's thorough information and more than ample proof that you won't get punished in some fashion "Eternally" doesn't seem to be enough, because intellectually, you seem to understand these things, but not emotionally. A Professional may be able to help you with your Seratonin Levels to lesson your overwhelming anxiety, you might have a chemical imbalance. I didn't write this to offend or belittle you, I've had problems with Depression and Anxiety myself(Ritalin helped me), in the past and so has my Wife, it's nothing to be ashamed of either, but you "might" benefit from some help.

                               Take Care, Samson.

Lupac:
Samson, thank you. I've told some of these things to Kat, but now, I'll say it to all of you. About a year ago, around Christmas, I had a really bad "break-down". At the time, I was worried that Satan was really "god" and I needed to start worshiping him. I ended up, going to a hospital after I told me parents I had thought about killing myself. It was a big mistake, my parents agreed with me, and... I have to go to work now. I'll explain more when I get home. In the end, I found a doctor that really helped me, but I never got free. I never tried taking any medication, or anything for it. I know intellectually, what's true and what isn't. If you put me up against a regular "ETer" I could probably wipe the floor with them. But that's not what I'm interested it.

Another thing that worries me is that the scriptures themselves aren't true. But more on that later. Thank you.

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