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Satan - Entity or parable

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Kat:

Yes Arion, I remember that piece about Ray talking about casting the demons form this woman.  So here is the excerpt from transcript "Who and What Is Jesus & Who Is His Father?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ------

Somebody ask me last week about demons.  There really are these things.  I’ve had a little experience and I know some of them by name. 

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together.  I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back.  We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there.  We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there.  It was one of those spooky nights.  By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping.  The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy. 

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ‘We have a little problem.’  We said okay, we’ll help and went with him.  So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women.  She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side.  She was acting strange.  So we ask what was going on, and he said, ‘well we think Anne is having a problem.’  So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ‘I know who you are.’  This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know.  We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us.  There were five strong men, in our 30’s trying to hold her down. 

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent.  We would ask, ‘who are you?’  She would just snarl and then she would give us a name.  We didn’t know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ.  And then she would settle down and be like, ‘what are you all doing?’  We’d say, well you’re not feeling to good Anne, ‘well, what’s wrong?’  You are just not feeling good right now.  Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  It’s kind of comical now, I don’t think that demons are smart.  I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them.  But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others.   So one after the other, they would just take her and we’d cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine.  She would say, ‘what’s wrong, why am I on the floor?’  She didn’t know what was happening.  We would ask each one’s name and it was a different demon.  One time I ask who are you, and it said ‘Bouk,’ we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, ‘no, that was Bok, I’m Bouk.’  I’m serious. 

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons.  Some of them just would not come out, it said, ‘the master would be very angry.’  We ask who is the master, it said, ‘ Beelzebub is the master.’  They didn’t want to come out.  Then she would settle down for a while.  Then this one, we said who are you, it said ‘no’  we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, ‘no’  we said we command you, you have to tell us, ‘my name is no.’  She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us.  I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating.  We knew we were in a different realm.  We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it.  So this stuff is real.  This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist.  They're spirits in the air.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

geokuhns:
I am so happy this topic of Satan is being discussed quite a bit on the forum lately. I am in contact by e-mail with a former minister (John) of the Worldwide Church of God of which I was a member. He was instrumental in my seeing the gross false teachings of that church in 1978 the year I left it. John is believing in some real bizarre doctrines. For example he believes that Christ's second return occurred in 70 AD.  ::) A few weeks ago he mailed me 8 audio tapes titled "Satan & His Kingdom" by Pastor Dave Barley. Pastor Barley teaches that Satan is not an entity but rather just our carnal minds. I have listened to 7 of the tapes and after the 8th tape I plan to mail John a letter of rebuttal to this twisted belief. As Ray always says: "Why don't we just believe the scriptures." The discussions on Satan that several of you are presenting are making my rebuttal much easier. So keep those cards and letters coming.  ;)

darren:
Greetings, I too see there have more topics on Satan than in the past. Some don't believe Satan is real, some believe  Satan is Parables or Satan is False doctrines. So on and so forth. Now I know I should be quoting scriptures to back my beliefs up but as I stated many times I am not very good at remembering exactly where certain scriptures are and I don't want to post a scripture and it is not 100% accurate.However it is my firm belief that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Scripture says God created Satan,evil,and satans messengers (devils), demons and such. Satan roams to and fro, he's like a lion waiting to devourer. God sends Satan to Job and Sends lying spirits to deceive. Sorry I can't give scriptures as I said I'm not very good at that, it's something I have been working on and will  continue. Also God sends Satan in the form of a serpent to Eve. God even sent Satan to His own Son in the desert so that Satan  (not God) would tempt Jesus. In my own opinion I think that (ONE) of  Satans greatest deceptions is that many people do not believe he even exists. Like I stated this is just what I believe and I am just throwing my two cent worth in the pot.

God bless,
Darren






d

dave:
Ive been here before on this same subject of satan.  I contend that all of you are correct in part, and my little self is in agreement. My thought now and then is WHEN did "satan"= opponent, adversary, become a
proper name?  IChron. 21:1 is the first time "satan" the word is used and and is an adversary to David. satan  is the "Hebrew word" for opponent, adversary. I am not denying the realness of the adversary, nor will I say the adversary is the carnal mind, tho the "I" is a thought. I have not found where the adversary is a created being, I know it is a spirit, powerful and real; and I know that the Lord God creates evil. I do believe that understanding Jesus' confrontation with the adversary has much to offer in understanding. In
Job 1:6  And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. (ylt)
Now I can see here that the Adversary (something against them) was in the midst. When/why did a doctrine(?) change the Hebrew word for adverasry/opponent to a proper named adversary? Dave

mharrell08:

--- Quote from: micah7:9 on February 07, 2010, 09:42:01 AM ---Ive been here before on this same subject of satan.  I contend that all of you are correct in part, and my little self is in agreement. My thought now and then is WHEN did "satan"= opponent, adversary, become a
proper name?  IChron. 21:1 is the first time "satan" the word is used and and is an adversary to David. satan  is the "Hebrew word" for opponent, adversary. I am not denying the realness of the adversary, nor will I say the adversary is the carnal mind, tho the "I" is a thought. I have not found where the adversary is a created being, I know it is a spirit, powerful and real; and I know that the Lord God creates evil. I do believe that understanding Jesus' confrontation with the adversary has much to offer in understanding. In
Job 1:6  And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst. (ylt)
Now I can see here that the Adversary (something against them) was in the midst. When/why did a doctrine(?) change the Hebrew word for adverasry/opponent to a proper named adversary? Dave
--- End quote ---


Hello Dave,

Have your read this installment or parts 9 & 10 of the Lake of Fire series?

Excerpt from Lake of Fire part 2 (http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html):

WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

According to Christendom, Satan created himself. He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve’s seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:8 ). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong’s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:

(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, ‘From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

"Behold, I have created the smith [that’s me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO’S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men’s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn’t finished YET!

"And no marvel [Gk: to wonder with ASTONISHMENT]; for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: meta schematizo, transfigure -- to change the outward form or appearance, to make GLORIOUS] into an ANGEL OF LIGHT" (II Cor. 11:14).

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there none beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL [even the creation of evil and even the creation of Satan] THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Satan is evil, God created evil, God CREATED SATAN!

"He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:8 ). So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?

Also, could you explain what you believe the importance is of whether 'adversary' is a proper name or not? What difference do you believe it would make?


Thanks,

Marques

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