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[Roy Martin]

I'm in the process of writing a hub titled, (How God Called Me.)
 The topic is based on Rays teachings about the myth of free will.
I would like to hear other peoples testimony of how God called them, but first I'll give you mine and lets see if we can find where I had free will to choose or volunteer and all those other words associated with free will.
  
 Twelve years ago all the world that I knew and lived in began to crumble piece by piece.Every part of my life was changing as I watched things going out of control. Everything I tried failed.One by one things were getting taken away; marriage,finances, my band, relationships, my home, my truck, emotions, pride and even the will to hang on to anything or to live. The fight to survive was gone.
 I plummeted beyond anything I had ever imagined. Somewhere in all of this I knew it had to be something supernatural, but God was no where in my thoughts until all was gone to the point that there was no one or anything left to hold on to or live for. This was how God called me. I will elaborate a little on that. Have you ever considered a drowning man of how he will grab at anything even things that aren't there in sheer desperation to live? When a man is drowning and gets tossed a life jacket just as he is going down for the last time isn't making a choice to grab the life jacket. Its all that is there, and he has no choice but to grab it without a millionth of a second thought. This is how God called me. He put Satan on me and broke me down taking everything out of my life to where I had not one person or thing to cling to but that wasn't the end of it. Satan took my will to live, my mind and took control of all of my rational thinking to the point that I was insane or so I thought and felt. I cried out to God and Satan tore into me even more, but God made Himself a life jacket for me to grab hold of, and I didn't dare let go even though I still didn't trust or believe in Him.
 Strange how some  say we didn't believe in God, but let me tell you that I know for sure God can and will make someone believe in Him when He is ready and you will answer Him by crying out to him because you have no choice.
 The darnedest thing is God introduced me to Satan first before He revealed Himself to me to let me know it was He that did all of these things. I tried many times later to choose to turn away from God, but He wouldn't let me. He had a destiny for me and I was helpless to change it, and here I am 12 years later.
  It was several years before God revealed to me that He was the one responsible for all of these things that happened, and that is how He drew me to Him. Never did I hear that voice like Moses did when he was called. I had to be called by breaking me down to a darkness beyond description.
 Can anyone see any free will, or choice in the way I was called. I really didn't even answer. I grabbed at the only thing available which was God. That's what He had in mind, to take everything in my life away except for Him. Well Satan was the deep water I had been tossed into and all I wanted was to get out of this deep stuff so I grabbed for God, the life jacket He provided just in time to save me. Oh how I thought I was so in control of my life and choices, and of how I gained all the things I had on my own.

Anyone willing to share how they were called or drawn to God?

Peace
Roy

PS. I think the drowning man analogy was too mild.How about tossed into a river full of alligators and poison snakes. Do you think you would be making a choice to jump onto a log or a boat that just happen to be there provided by God? Where in the world is free to choose in this?

[Ninny]

Roy, this reminds me of a saying, "It's always darkest just before dawn" at the moment of your darkest hour God's light shined. I've had many of those darkest hours in my life..but in it all God was there!

"Just when I need Him, Jesus is near,
Just when I falter, just when I fear;
Ready to help me, ready to cheer,
Just when I need Him most."

Life is a process..and in all of it God is there! I was raised in church and knowing God, so my life has been a series of discoveries and learning and unlearning..each time I know that God has led me to where I am.
Thank you for sharing that, Roy! 
Kathy

[Marky Mark]

Hello Roy.What you speak of sure reminds me of the beast in all of us,even kings who thought that everything was because of their own fabled free will.

Your story sure has a familiar ring to it.
When the beast rears its ugly head,guess Who is waiting to cut it off. 

Hope you don't mind me posting some of Rays paper in your thread. I think it falls into the fold pretty well.


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

THE LAKE OF FIRE

Installment XV - Part D

The Myth of Free-Will Exposed

THE KING OF BABYLON COMES OUT OF BABYLON

One of the most remarkable stories ever told, is virtually never ever told in the Church. That is the trial God inflicted upon King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. They have not a clue as to what it means or what was accomplished by it. Maybe we should read it.

God gave King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon a dream, part of which Daniel interprets as follows:

"That they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, TILL YOU KNOW THAT THE MOST HIGH RULES IN THE KINGDOM OF MEN, AND GIVES IT TO WHOMESOEVER HE WILL" (Dan. 4:25).

Do we think that God doesn’t do things like this anymore? Do we think that God "changes" the way that He does things today? Do we think that God is a "respecter of persons?"

From the above verse in Daniel, does it appear that God knows in advance whether His plan will work or not? Can God predict with certainty that He will get the desired result for His actions in the affairs of mankind? Does man have a "free will" which could possibly alter the outcome of what God predetermines must be? I speak as a fool.

"At the end of twelve months he [Nebuchadnezzar] walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

The king spoke, and said, is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honor of MY majesty?" (Dan. 4:29-30).

Sounds like the voice of a true "free-willer" doesn’t it? This is how all free-willers speak and believe. "I am responsible for my actions and you are responsible for your actions. I can will to do good if I so desire, and you can will to do good if you so desire. God does not, and will not, ever interfere with man’s free will, free choice, free moral agency." Is this a nursery rhyme we are reading in Dan. 4, or is this the word of God?

God says to Nebuchadnezzar: "Here is what I will do to you, and here is the result it will accomplish": "...till YOU KNOW..." is God’s pronouncement.

Back to the palace:

"While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from you.

The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles’ feathers, and his nails like birds claws" (Verses 31 & 33).

Will God’s plan for the king accomplish the desired result? What if the king uses his "free will" against God’s plan? What if the king desires to will something altogether different from what God has already preordained will happen with the king’s heart? Again, I speak as a fool:

"And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up my eyes unto heaven, and my understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honored Him that lives for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing [‘nothing’ is pretty small]: and He does according to His Will.."

WAIT, WAIT, STOP! What is this? What is this that we are reading? "God does according to HIS will...?" But if this statement is true, then where pray tell, does that leave MAN’S will?

Right here, dear readers, is a drama to end all dramas of the ages. Talk about Greek tragedy—we are about to witness a great Babylonian tragedy. There is a battle of the wills going on in this drama. God pits HIS will against that of king Neduchadnezzar. Hmmm...wonder which one will win?

Consider with a rational mind for a moment the implications of the outcome of this great drama. If man’s will [in this case king Nebuchadnezzar’s] should win, then he has not only made a LIAR out of God, but he has in fact DEFEATED God. On the other hand, if God’s will should win out, then we have conclusive, Scriptural proof, that MAN DOES NOT HAVE A WILL THAT CAN OPERATE CONTRARY TO, INDEPENDENT OF, AND IN OPPOSITION TO, THE DECLARATIONS OF GOD’S PLAN AND PURPOSE.

Yes, we are about to settle this controversy regarding man’s fabled free will that supposedly enables him to will contrary to what God has ordained MUST HAPPEN. Continuing:

"...And He [God] does according to HIS will in the inhabitants of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none... [How many? ‘NONE.’ How many are left out? ‘NONE.’ How many have a free will that can will against God’s declared intentions? ‘NONE.’ How many stubborn, dyed-in-the-wool, free-willers will repent and believe this declaration of God Himself? ‘NONE.’] ...and NONE can stay [restrain] His hand, or say unto Him, What are You doing?" (Verse 35).

It doesn’t get any clearer than this. If you can’t accept this truth and repent of your egotistical, self worth, and self superiority, thinking that you can thwart the very intentions of God’s Own will any time you desire, then you too will be PUNISHED for your stout and arrogant heart:

"Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all Whose works are Truth, and His ways justice: and those that walk in pride He is able to abase [HUMBLE]" (Verse 37).

God told Daniel that only the "wise" would understand these things:

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and NONE of the wicked shall understand; but the WISE shall understand" (Dan. 12:9-10).

Remember that God repeats for emphasis those things that are extremely important:

ONCE:

"...to the intent that the living may know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomsoever He will..." (Dan. 4:17).

A SECOND:

"...and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomsoever He will" (Ver. 25).

A THIRD:

"till you shall have known that the heavens do rule..." (Verse 26).

A FOURTH:

"...seven times shall pass over you until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives sit to whomsoever He will" (Ver. 32).

A FIFTH:

"...and I blessed the Most High and I praised and honored Him…and He does according to HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth and NONE can stay His hand..." (Ver. 34-35).

A SIXTH:

"...And he was driven from the sons of men, and his heart was made like the beasts… till he knew that the Most High God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that He appoints over it whomsoever He will" (Dan. 5:21).

Can we now believe that it is important to understand that we can accomplish nothing of our own will, and that it is not free to do anything independent of God and His purpose? Does not the mere fact that God repeats this grand declaration six times on two pages prove just how very very important this teaching is? Where else has God repeated Himself six times on two pages regarding one aspect of man’s nature which must be changed?

Did not Nebuchadnezzar have a "will?" Of course he did. Did he not claim that it was by his own will that he accomplished what he did in his great kingdom? Of course he did. Did God show him that his thinking and philosophy of life and self-determinism was wrong? Yes He did. Did the king acknowledge his own stupidity and vanity? Yes he did. Does the king give us wise warning as to what God will do to all others who have this same arrogant belief that they can do things independent of God through their fabled free will? A word to the wise is sufficient.

Peace...Mark

[Roy Martin]

Mark of course I don't mind. It was a perfect connection.
 I'm trying to see from others testimony's also of how this all connects with applications of scriptures such as the quote you provided. Thank you.

Peace
Roy

[Stacey]

Hi Roy, I thought the life ring analogy was great! And its true, when a man is in the water drowning he will grab anything that is tossed his way. I took a water survival course and part of it had to deal with saving a drowning man. One had to be careful not to let the drowning man drown the rescuer in the process.  It was much easier to toss a life ring than to go and get the man, hehe.

As far as sharing the way I was called I'd have to say it was more of a dragging experience for me.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11132.0.html

[Roy Martin]

Hi Stacey, then you know all to well that a drowning man isn't in the position to make a choice by grabbing a life jacket. He would grab you and drown you, but without intentions of doing so. He is simply reacting to a very serious situation of which he has no control.

 Yea you have a great testimony.I read it when you first came here. You got to hear the voice thing.
No I can't see any free will in your testimony, but I do see a reaction to the circumstances.
 You know I never thought about it until now that reaction and choosing have two different meanings of which is what confuses people. What they call free will to choose is more of a reaction, at least it was on my part of how God drew me.Humm!

Peace
Roy

[Deborah-Leigh]

I can relate to being dragged. Here are two posts I entered into the Forum in 2006.

Oct 8 2006
I have been dragged LITTERALLY AGAINST MY WILL out of Mystery Babylon.....

I have been shown   by the GRACE OF GOD that MYSTERY BABYLON CHURCH FELLOWSHIP was inadequate and was labeled so called fellowship to disguise that  it was superficial and insincere.... at the time it APPEARED to be deep and sincere AND I BOUGHT INTO IT BECAUSE I WANTED TO STAY IN IT. Now, not only have I been led out of illusion of hanging onto crumbs of thinking I was in fellowship, I now know I was naked, poor and needing comfort among others who were also not only naked in the spirit and no knowing it but they were  hurting too. The only thing we all had in common was our need for comfort, appeasement and approval that came in large doses of self-deception.

We see what happened to the Hebrews after they left Egypt and I do not want to be ungrateful ...I am not at all....yet I am experiencing that being led from evil and illusion into truth hurts because now I cannot find much truth anywhere OUTSIDE ANY MORE while in the past it appeared to be everywhere and everyone else's possession ie the Church's possession, the Pastors or the Anointed one's possession and yours too if THEY said so!  What has our Lord done for you to wean you off the poison diet  of Mystery Babylon?

Where do you get your spiritual food?...other than here of course... That is what I want to know.  Where's the banquet, the real one I mean? ...are you hanging on day by day BREATH BY BREATH in dependence on Christ for your immediate provisions...?and I am not talking about the needs of the body I am talking about our soul and spirit need for HIS breath of life!..fruit of HIS Spirit!

 I see that bondage to illusion offers the superficial comfort of make-believing that you are free or okay or doing just fine. That is kind of like drinking killer Morphine in small medicinal doses gradually on the increase....Jesus Christ on the other hand shows our dependence is on HIS freedom and in HIS faithfulness to God because in and of ourselves we have nothing! Has anyone here grown past this painful revelation? I am right in it! It is most uncomfortable....so ....How has God been leading/dragging you? and....may HE CONTINUE TO DO SO!
 Oct 9 2006
I did not want to go out of the Church I was in. I was hooked. I was a Cell leader and enjoying the shine! When I got pushed out, no less by the Pastor himself....I was devastated...isolated...rejected...and hurting! The whole Church turned on me in a most painful way..... I DID NOT WANT THAT! THAT WAS AGAINST MY WILL!....but it was according to God will to humble me.....and I thank God but it did hurt terribly!....

Very soon after that and on my birthday, I was given access to Ray's web! How is that for God's timing! and love. Wonderful don't you think. So..by Gods grace, God had me  experience in a very real way, how he is the healer of the broken hearted! I have since been gradually enlightened by the truth I was then so very blind to see!  I wonder how many others can relate to ....being  thus dragged.... This was my experience and it  was certainly God's gift to me from the start where a gift from God will and can not be denied!....I believe this as much as His word will not return to Him empty....so it was with me. I could not fight God and win. He paid for me....called me out and came and dragged me out because I was too blind to get out!  

I believe God did not want me to think I had done anything in myself to have come out of Babylon! I wanted, in my ignorance, naivety and self-dependence....to stay in collecting a false sense of right standing before God by bowing to manmade systems, that appeared correct and righteous through their regulations and rules.

I am very grateful to God for HIS mercy and HIS pleasure to take me out of the illusion and blind mindedness. I am so grateful for His touch on my eyes to see the real light of HIS Spirit that is not religious at all.....He is helping me recover from a near fatal attack of the disease of Religion!

This experience shows how God over ruled my ignorance and illusion that I found comfortable and even enjoyable in my gross self reliance on others who presented themselves as God's spokespersons. False Prophets! Damnable Heresy!...I believed it!..tried to join it and failed thanks to GOD!

I am grateful and so very grateful now after the pain of extracting me out of a seductive and false deceptive system to put me where I am today....knowing HIM better, loving and learning from HIM through HIS called out ones! and through the grace and mercy of His Spirit of Truth and love...

Hope this explains why I can relate to that word Dragged.  I was dragged!.....