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[Roy Martin]

 Everyone's replies are greatly appreciated of which has been a blessing.
I got more out of this topic spiritually than I expected. Very enlightening and inspirational to say the least.

Roy

[Marlene]

Nice post ! When, God first led me to read Ray's articles I was so shocked to find out that I was serving a false God. Then, I wanted to share it with all the lost.  Then, I realized I could not teach anyone anything. I was just learning and continue to learn.

I love all the lost in the worldy church systemand the wicked as God does . He sees them as finished. When, I first came in here I had such compassion on the ones in the church system. But, it is Gods plan.
Right, before coming in here I had done something I had such rermorse about, that I felt  such torment. I realized I was a hypocrite among other things. I have never been publicly embarrased , but I can tell you God always got me good. Have to say I found repenting about that easy, but then all I could think was I was going to Hell.  Only, to find out I did not know anything right.

I do not like the things evil people do. But, it is Gods plan. Also, I remember how Ray talks about we could have been any of those people. Well, I have no doubt about that. I am not proud of anything I have ever done.

God saved my life that night. I wanted to die, but was afraid to. God gave me a miracle that night. He set me free of alot of things. God has given me many miracles through my life. One miracle after the other, but not forgiving someone who hurt me and doing worse then they did humbled me good.Israel looked at all the miracles he did but never saw them. So, they lost the promise.

I can see my self like those in the desert for 40 years. I have been there for a long time. I looked at myself so long that I could not see myself how God does. I tried to obey law (devil) who threw it up to me. I would go back and forth. Now, I just want to learn from this and move on  to his Pure Grace .
I now longer have to be tortured by the war going on in me. Wanting to do the good I don't do. Gods Grace is sufficent for me. I have taken my eyes off of my sins. Looking only to Gods Grace. His blood covers all my sins and he is well able to show me when I am not doing something right. He does put himself in us.  He keeps me in line.  God has been slaying the dragons that come to me. In the begining after learning the truth all kinds of things hit me.

I did not understand what was happening.  I kind of was going through what Lupac was going through. I even had the accuser tell me you are not forgiven.
You are going to Hell. Thanks to God he helped me to see the accuser. The accuser uses the old law to keep you looking at the monster you are.
Thats, why Jesus came to die for all who could not keep them. God is well able to save us. If, he needs to correct me he does it lovingly even though it may not seem like it till you see it.

I now look at my self like God does a finished product. I now look at the rest of the world as finished. The enemy comes in may ways. You never knew it while lost. He already had you. Now, he doesn't.  I think this is good for everyone to know, because we can share with Lupac and others who do not quite believe God. When, he said finished on that cross it was done in his opinion.  When, we see that we will love just like Ray has shown us in his love teachings.

I was afraid when I first came in here after believeing there was no Hell to share with you all the battle going on within me. But, God has helped  me to see the enemy myself the acusser the devil . When, we except his Pure Grace with no room for doubt the accuser will flee. God was teaching me and it was not easy, but I am so glad all I want now is to look to him and not self , law or the accuser.
Anything, else is considered to God as unbelief if we turn back.

Paul, battled it so will we who are finding truth.

In His Love, Marlene

[Deborah-Leigh]

I have taken my eyes off of my sins

 !

That is what receiving His Peace is all about!  Only the Spirit of Christ can release us from the agony of our naked wretchedness. Only His Spirit can enfold us in the garments of spiritual gratitude. Only His Spirit can cover us in the robes of  His Love that wraps us in His Mercy and Pity.
 
Isa 26:3  You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You; because he trusts in You.

1Jn 3:19  And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1Jn 3:20  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

It is good to remind one another of His Spiritual wardrobe that adorns His Children with His Spirit of Worship and Truth.

I am so glad all I want now is to look to Him

Yes. In seeing Him, is our peace and His Spirit giving to us that privilege and liberty to draw on His Love.

Neh 8:10  Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye sorry; for the joy of the LORD is your strength.

Arc

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi John

 I pray to God that I am not tested to that limit where I may prefer to kill rather than see any of my loved ones murdered. God forbid! I know the Beast can do anything and that anyone of us can be any one of the people who have done what we consider beyond our capabilities.

We have a person staying with us for a while, who saw his wife murdered before his eyes three years ago. He was defensless -in the plan and purpose of His Creator who knows what He is doing. His life is a mess on the outside but God is a restorer of the broken hearted and He knows how and when to restore the lost.

Perhaps we say too easily that we would kill to save our loved ones, not knowing the full ramifications of such a thought or never having experienced the aftermath of having to see such a deeply painful tradgedy happen before us.

It is better to ask God to spare us ever having to imagine that we have to defend ourselves or our loved ones by agreement to take someone else's life. Having lived in the war time in Rhodesia, this challenge in thought came to test us all. I have long since decided that I prefer to die rather than live and you know what, that is a preference I know I  have,  not even having had to experience the difficulties that some folks are God given to endure and suffer! It would not take much to make me loose my mind or curl up and want to stop breathing. Only God is keeping any of us alive.

We are wise to ask that we do not become the club of death in the Hand of God used to defend, promote or protect ourselves for any reason. Your discernment and correction are therefore well placed for us all to consider and not only for Roy to discern.

I would prefer to die rather than to kill but even my death would be cruelty to those I love so to God be His  plan and His purpose as to Him too  depends our endurace in our test of Faith.
 
Arc

[Shammie]

Again this post as so many have been is quite pertinent in exploing some of the trials we face in our dying to the pulls of the flesh.As I am writing this on my verandah (I have not done this in months just to avoid the ridicule,insults and mockery of my neighbours),suddenly my neighbours have come down to within mere feet of me.However something has changed,stangely that urge to run and to want to defend myself has not welled up in me but I do feel a strange sense of pity for them.Again from all I have learnt from you all is ,we have to endeavour to look away from self and look to the Lord for our help,we have to count the cost to follow Jesus,we have to accept our allotment.
I have been a prisoner to the fear of my enemies, to the possibility of things happening that might not even occur and with Ray's inspiration all I am now able to do is to pray for the strength and faith to face my trials and the pulls of the flesh.This I am learning  might not happen in an instant but overtime with the aid of the Spirit, from darkness and chaos to order and wholeness.
I am sorry, I am rambling but today was a good day.

[Roy Martin]

Hi John,
 I'll answer only one of your questions of which I speak for myself. Yes! I think it would be ok for me to protect my family and myself even if it meant taking a life in the process. It isn't something I would want to happen, but I don't think it would be wrong in any way. God never told us to let someone kill us or a family member. Police officers do it all the time and its right that they do it to protect others from being harmed.
 My statement is me, of what I feel. I don't expect anyone to agree or disagree, but this post isn't about killing people. The title is, (Who is the enemy) as in spiritual enemy. My statement was clear that it wasn't about killing people.
 Please don't let it go there and get this thread locked down.
I have gained a lot from this topic of Who is the Enemy, not whether its okay to kill people.

Roy
 
 

[Deborah-Leigh]

this post isn't about killing people

You make a valid point Roy also about knowing where and how you stand before God which is between you and God just as what I feel or what anyone else feels is also between them and God. 

How did Samson feel when he said Jdg 16:30 ……… Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

The last thing Zedekiah’s eyes saw was the death of his sons after which he was put in prison till the day of his death. Only God knows what He did to Zedekiah’s heart and mind during that time.  We have a glimpse. The experience of evil, humbles us.

2Ki 25:7  And they slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes, and put out the eyes of Zedekiah, and bound him with fetters of brass, and carried him to Babylon.

God has given us a better plan.
 
Heb 11:39  All these people  (OT faithful and prophets )won approval for their faith but did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40  since God had planned something better for us so that they would not become perfect without us.
 
Both Zedekiah and his sons and Samson and the Prophets are dead. We are alive and speculating and contending, is fruitless.
The best is yet to come either with or without us. With us, we are found watching after the fruit of His Spirit which is Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Endurance and Patience. Without which He comes as a thief in the night. The Best that returns to us, is Christ.

Arc

[Roy Martin]

Ark, I must admit that you are a blessing.

Roy

[Roy Martin]

Thank you John for clarifying. Forgive me that it seems I was offended, because I promise I wasn't, nor did I intend to offend you. Okay! now that we have that out of the way.
 I can only speak for myself in regard to your question, Can a NT follower of Jesus take a life?
Well it has never occurred to me that I might be an elect., but I think I can say that it would take the power of God to keep his elect from taking a life. We can only do, and not do, by His power and intentions.
 I think I'll wait for the more mature to answer your question, but first I'll say that murder isn't the same as defending your life or someone else, at least not the way I see it and understand. Since God is in complete control of everything then I'd say the elect won't have to worry about taking a life, but if they did then that's just the way it was meant to be. It wasn't meant to be for His disciples to take a life. Its up to God.
 I say I would take a life, but God could keep me from it.

Peace
Roy

[mharrell08]

I ask the question because God's Elect will be Kings and Priests in the Kingdom ruling over others.  When those we lead and are responsible for, come to us and ask a simple question, "can a follower of Jesus take a life?"  What will our answer be?  It seems a simple and basic question?  There should be a simple and straightforward answer.

Again, I do not want to throw off your topic.

Peace,  John

John,

I understand the question but the reasoning behind it seems a bit off. Who has said anything about anyone 'coming to us' and asking questions in the Day of the Lord? Christ always SENT His disciples to look after His flock...Paul did not set up shop in 1 town and have the nations come and ask him questions.

Members,

As far as taking another person's life...what does the scriptures say? The hypothetical discussion of whether or not to use self-defense or violent force never leads to an edifying conclusion. The only thing it does is show how carnal we ALL still are as we quote scriptures by the dozen all over the forum but when a 'hard' scenario is presented, we just toss those same scriptures to the wind.

If anyone disagrees, please simply email Ray...this is his teaching grounds and it is pointless for everyone to try to justify their own opinions in this matter. The forum has 'been there, done that' in regards to this subject.


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2701.msg20050.html#msg20050):

Hello Ray,

Cheers to your spreading the truth! I really admire someone with intelligence.

A quick question, please. If we are to love our enemy, does that mean we should not defend ourselves?

Scenario: A person breaks into your house and attacks your family. Should we not fight off the attack?

Thank you, Matt
 

Dear Matt:
That's a fair question, and I do not wish to offend you in any way for asking it, but let me use your email as a teaching tool for others as well, okay?  I really hate answering hypothetical questions. Five minutes ago while having my coffee and watcing the morning new,  Chris Wallace asked Jim Baker, "IF the President were to put YOU in charge of negotiations between the US and Iran, how would you go about it?"  Mr. Baker said: "The President won't put me in charge, so I won't be doing any negotiations." When asked a second time, he replied, "I don't answer hypothetical questions.."
 
I have seen people backed into corners over hypothetical questions. Not that you are doing that, but if I were to put say some "limitation" on the amount of force to be used in this hypothetical family attack, let's say "hypothetically 5 pounds" of force, then the question would be, "But what if the situation reqauired 5 pounds and 1 ounce to be administered?"  What about 5 pounds and 2 ounces? 3 ounces?  What if it were a situation in which one had to shoot a person in the head with a 57 Magnum or your whole family would die? Would you shoot him? What if your family would die and the whole city with them, unless you personally would SHOOT this person?  "What if one shot in the head would SAVE THE WHOLE WORLD, would you do it, Ray?"
 
You know what? I don't think I want to answer hypothetical questions either. God said that we should not try to rehearse in our minds just what we would say if brought before a board of persecutors, neither do I think we need to try and rehearse what we would do if someone broke into our home. You don't know what you would do, number one, and most would not follow my advice anyway, number two. Jesus didn't say: "If a bully strikes your little girl on her right cheeck, turn to him the left cheek of your daughter also," now did He? Although, someone will now probably ask, "But what would you do, Ray, if that happened?" You know it is possible to physically defend oneself and one's family without "hating" the offender.
 
Trust me when I say that if it has not yet happened, it will, when your faith with be tried in a way that is just between you and your God, and there won't even be time to send me an email.  Bottom line: Don't try to come up with 'hypothetical' situations in which you think that the laws of God and the ways of God would not be fair, or practical, or logical, and therefore would have to be changed, altered, or just totally thrown away as useless in practical, real life situations. The shame is that many people who have used alternative measures to God's ways, and have failed in so doing, will never know how things would have been different had they just trusted God in the first place.  It is oh so true, that "we learn obedience by the things WE SUFFER."
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1516.msg12843.html#msg12843):

What do you believe the bible says about personal self defense? If you can not answer me now I would like to see something on your site in the future. Thank you.


Dear Michael:

The Bible says: "But I say unto you, That ye RESIST NOT EVIL, but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matt. 5:39).

God be with you,

Ray


Thanks,

Marques

[Roy Martin]

A lesson learned in everything said and done in the neighborhood. Won't you be my neighbor? Can everyone say neighbor? Of course you can.

Peace
Roy

[Deborah-Leigh]

 God causes everything and that would include whatever we are posting here in this Forum.
 

I say I would take a life, but God could keep me from it.

That is absolutely the truth Roy. Ray expounds the fact that God MADE Jesus.
 
You say and recognise Roy, that what you would do, you recognize that God can cause you or anyone to do differently. Paul also knew that.  Jesus knew the weak condition of Peter's unconverted heart and even this Peter denied to the face of God and then later much to his bitterness, he denied even knowing Jesus.

God knows what we are going to do before we do it. God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the forbidden fruit. This is one of the truths that is denied by all of Christiandom and is well expounded in the series on the Myth of Free Will here in BT.  

Only the Spirit of God can make us obedient and pleasing in His sight. God is all powerful to make the vessel to honor and the vessel to dishonor.  
The following Scriptures show how powerful and Sovereign God is to even change our minds for the better!

Mat 21:28  "But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
Mat 21:29  His son replied, 'I don't want to,' but later he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30  Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, 'I will, sir,' but he didn't go.
Mat 21:31  Which of the two did the father's will?" They answered, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you.

Arc

[Roy Martin]

Mat 21:28  "But what do you think? A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.'
Mat 21:29  His son replied, 'I don't want to,' but later he changed his mind and went.
Mat 21:30  Then the father went to the other son and told him the same thing. He replied, 'I will, sir,' but he didn't go.
Mat 21:31  Which of the two did the father's will?" They answered, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into God's kingdom ahead of you.

Ark I have read these scriptures many times and just now I finally understood the question, and the correct answer. This just confirms that there is a reason for everything said and done. It never ends as to the things we can learn from the unexpected.

I'm sorry that I made a statement in my leading post, but none the less it did lead to some good lessons learned on my part, and led to an answer I didn't know for many years.

Roy

[Deborah-Leigh]

That is really the Spirit of God showing Himself in all His Wisdom that is causing our fellowship here in unity with His Mind and Heart Roy!

Have you ever done something admirable and well that you thought was impossible for you to do? Have you ever done something wrong and against what you yourself expected and that you never knew you were capable of? God controls everything we are feeling, thinking, doing and not doing. God is giving us all an experience that is to the Will and Purpose of His Plan as He guides our circumstances as He works to complete making us into His Image.

No one can help who and what they are except the Spirit of God.  We know we cannot win souls. We are a peculiar lot!

I have of late been able to contribute in this Forum in a very different style, I think, than some of my earlier posts in the Forum where I was equipped  to defeat the slightest deviation from the  truth with great gusto that was never, not once to fail to refute the opinions of others that carried, expressed or seemed to prefer the errors of false beliefs.

As a great admirer of how Ray responded to his critics and detractors, I copied, learned and began to imitate his style and fervor. There is a place to refute and expose those who contradict but there is also a place to nurture, encourage and expound the truths as we see them as we begin to  see the merit of truth and the foolishness of anything else that misses the mark.

 I am seeing the Wisdom of being  encouraging  where appointed by God to be so, and to be aware of any good that is spoken and to be supportive of that rather than seeing the error and going hammer and tong to destroy, change or bring it shame, guilt or despair.
 
Refuting those who contradict is part of the process but not the process in isolation. As Ray expounded in his latest Conference, we are to learn how to welcome those who want to join us.  Differences in opinions and navigating our way around views that do not line up with our own observations, is how we are to learn to be patient, trusting of God and humble in our dealings with those for whom Christ has died.
 
With all edification and to the Glory of God, we are here now in a most privileged window of His Spirit.

Arc

[Roy Martin]

Ark you have posted so many profound words in all of your replies in this thread. Everyone of them have statements that I have been dwelling on for awhile.
  Topics I have started, plus some replies I've made to other post that seem to be related to interest I have; inspired by other comments from others, has narrowed down to this thread, all coming together with perfect clarity and conformation. What started out as seeing the man in the cafe in my post, "Seeing and loving people as god does", has come to full circle in this thread. I have apologized to Carrie Bradshaw for bashing her in several of her hubs. I deleted one of my hubs and intend to clean up the other 2 because my heart wasn't right when I wrote them, and all the words and intentions were wrong, but as rockerdude said, it was my hub that brought me out  of I'm right your wrong kind of mentality, therefore God is in control of even my unrighteous hub, and comments to Carrie.
 I was mixing law with truth, and doing it with an impure heart, and God led me in each direction that led me to repentance. I'm not saying exposing is wrong. I'm saying it has to be done with the right heart and intentions, and not to go out looking for it, seeking out someone just to expose. God let me know that one can share the truth with a humble heart.
 As you said Ark, there is a time for it, and not a time.
This thread has been great in so many ways and will continue as I meditate more on it.
  Ark. your writing has definitely changed with a tremendous spiritual improvement. Not saying anything bad about the before, but You just keep coming with awesome stuff that has blessed me, encouraged and summed up many things for me. Seeing people as God sees them, of which God let me do,the enemy, getting humbled, being humble, a purpose for everything, and the lessons in them, patience and understanding, not to judge and condemn others, and a few more.
I sincerely hope that others received as much from this thread as I have. I would like for it to keep coming. I can never get enough of this good stuff.

Thank you and continue as you are doing.

In Christ
Roy

[mharrell08]

Good thread all around. I'll go ahead and lock it before it goes into 'left field'. 


Marques