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Parables
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: mcmiller on February 08, 2010, 10:23:36 PM ---I have read and re-read Ray's teaching on this, but here is where I run into trouble. In the above out-takes from Ray it states that first comes the physical and then the spiritual.
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Actually, that is from scripture:
1 Cor 15:46 ...the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual [NKJV]
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
--- Quote from: mcmiller on February 08, 2010, 10:23:36 PM --- If that is true, how do we deal with Lazarus and the Rich Man? Here there is obviously no actual physical, if there was, it would validate what Christianity says about punishing and hell.
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What do you mean, "how do we deal with it?"
Christ tells us that the words that He speaks are spiritual [John 6:63], meaning they have a higher spiritual message that their literal application. And it is also written that Christ ONLY taught in parable [Matt 13:34, Mark 4:34].
Lazarus and the Rich Man is no more real or literal than the tale of 'The Emperor's New Clothes'. We deal with this parable the same way as this children's tale...hearken to the LESSON being told and use this wisdom in our lives.
--- Quote from: mcmiller on February 08, 2010, 10:23:36 PM ---
And then what about prophesy? It is true that prophesy is not all predictions about future events, much is exposition from God about the way things are using metaphorical themes. I don't see how we can have it both ways.
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Both ways of what?
Who are you to decide that spiritual meanings/teachings cannot be discerned from physical applications? What scriptural reasoning is there for this?
--- Quote from: mcmiller on February 08, 2010, 10:23:36 PM --- Is it sometimes that the physical comes first then the spiritual and sometimes that there is no actual but a story employing the physically recognizable to tell a parable with spiritual meanings? This would seem to present a real problem deciding which it is.
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I'm going to post a few scriptures to answer these comments. Some people become offended as they believe these words are some sort of slight at their level of understanding or something else about them. It is not, but God who gives each of us a measure of understanding:
Dan 12:10 ...none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
1 Cor 2:10-14 God has revealed them ['them' - hidden wisdom of God v6-7] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
--- Quote from: mcmiller on February 08, 2010, 10:23:36 PM --- I am not trying to say that there are no historical events recorded in the bible, but isn't it also possible that events that sound historical are actually pure parable with the sole intent of delivering a spiritual meaning? To what purpose would there be in recording a historical event if there was no spiritual lesson included?
Still confused.
Mark
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I'm sorry for your confusion Mark, my replies to you are not to belittle you.
All the events in the bible have a higher, spiritual meaning. Whether you believe these events literally happened or not is between you and God...as God is the author of the faith and this faith is a gift from Him.
I don't' understand the point of your 2nd question, perhaps you could clarify that a bit?
You began this thread asking when does the literal 'take off' and the parable begin? It's not about the literal events 'taking off' or ceasing to be real. The literal events themselves simply have a higher meaning than what took place. That's why Ray refers to the bible as ONE giant parable, not a collection of multiple parables.
One point as well: NONE of the parables that Christ taught in His 'earthly ministry' were literal. I don't know if that makes things more confusing or less but I wanted to make sure that was clear.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Kat:
Hi Mark,
Maybe we can look at other ways that the Scriptures can be shown to have a higher spiritual meaning by using figures of speak, symbols, metaphors, parables, etc... I will continue to present what Ray has already explained in such detail.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html ----------------------
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
"This is the second death--the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15 and 21:8) is a metaphor that is no more literal than "Jesus taking the bread...said, ‘Take, EAT. This IS My body" (Mat. 26:26).
Paul did not instruct Timothy to "STUDY" the scriptures if a mere casual reading is all that is necessary to comprehend its many deep and profound teachings. On the other hand, I believe that those who have "studied" God’s Word are able to open up much understanding to those who are not called to teach (even babes, or minors as our Lord stated).
I want to quickly show my readers just how impossible it is to assume most of God’s word is literal.
Again I state: All God’s Word is TRUE, however, much of it is figurative language which is not literally true to fact, but rather in what the figurative language of symbols, metaphors, and parables represent.
BIBLICAL FIGURES OF SPEECH
Here are some of the fully substantiated figures of language used in Scripture. I borrowed many of these examples from an appendix in the back of The Concordant Literal New Testament.
We will begin with FIGURES OF LIKENESS which include:
similes (when something is like, or as something else, it is a simile rather than a metaphor)
metaphors (where one thing is said to actually be something else) as in, "all life is grass" I Pet. 1:24. Therefore, the subject of this paper IS a metaphor and CANNOT be literal: John says, "...the lake of fire, This IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14), and "...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which IS the second death" (Rev. 21:8)
implications
parables (there are many, the shortest one being, "Physician, heal Thyself" Luke 4:23)
allegories (as in the two women standing for two covenants, Gal. 4:22-28)
visions (as in a sheet let down from heaven, Acts 10:11-16)
signs (as in the sign of Jonah the prophet, Matt. 12:39)
types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
examples (as in the tabernacle vessels being examples of what is in heaven , Heb. 9:23)
images (as Christ is the image of God, Col. 1:15)
impersonations or personifications (where things are spoken of as persons)
condescension's (as where God takes on human attributes)
diminutives (as in "little women, heaped with sins" II Tim. 3:6)
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We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8). However, that does not purge us from all our filthy thoughts and deeds. No, there is more. There is also a consuming FIRE that God uses on us:
"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, WOOD, HAY, STUBBLE; Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed BY FIRE; and the FIRE shall TRY EVERY MAN’S WORK of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be BURNED, he shall SUFFER LOSS; but [pay close attention to this BIG BUT] BUT HE HIMSELF [the one who had his works burned and consumed in God’s consuming fire] SHALL BE SAVED [What will save him?], yet so AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:11-15)!!!
Ah dear readers, can we begin to understand the workings of God? God consumes with fire, the wood, hay and stubble in our lives. The things that don’t deserve to continue. But he REFINES the gold, silver, and precious stones (those doctrines and godly character traits of God’s spirit that abide the fire). It is figurative language, it is an analogy, it is a parable, it is metaphorical (where one thing is called another thing). Our lives have either qualities of character (which are likened to gold and precious stones, things of value to refine and retain), or gross lacks in character (which are likened to wood, hay, and stubble and which are not worthy to retain or preserve). And just as real literal fire is used to refine and purify gold and precious metals, so God’s SPIRITUAL FIRE refines and purifies us from our sinful and carnal nature. And likewise, as real literal fire is used to burn up wood and stubble, so God’s all consuming SPIRITUAL FIRE will consume and burn up all the impurities in our life.
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The book of Revelation is written in SYMBOLS! So what is written externally, on paper, in symbols, has a SPIRITUAL meaning and application.
Let us now see the symbolism of this prophecy. I will pick out some of the most obvious things that would be impossible to understand literally.
Notice that in verse ten John informs us that,
"I was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord’s day..."
And then he begins to tell us what he hears and sees. Now the very fact that he was "in the spirit" on the Lord’s day conclusively proves that he was not literally there! Let us never lose sight of this fact: John WRITES what has been SIGNIFIED (WITH SYMBOLS) the things that he SEES and HEARS IN A VISION--IN SPIRIT!
Beginning in verse twelve John starts to tell us what he saw and heard,
"And I turned to see the voice that spake with me ... his eyes were as a flame of fire, and his feet like unto fine brass ... And he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword..."
NONE of what I underlined is literal. Have you ever "seen a voice?" All these things are symbols that stand for other things. And God immediately gives us proof positive of this in verse 20,
"The mystery [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE THE ANGELS OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES."
The stars are not literal and the candlesticks are not literal. In the first 20 verses of Revelation we can find eleven statements that are not literal, but rather symbolic. They represent truths that are presented in symbols. The literal language is not the literal truth being presented. The statements themselves do not teach us the truth OF the statements. We must look elsewhere in the Scriptures for the interpretation.
Now chapter one was pretty easy as God told us just what some of those symbols represented. But there are dozens and dozens more symbols in this book of Revelation that are not explained in the verses that follow immediately. How shall we understand all those symbols. First of all, without the spirit of God, the answer is we will never understand these symbols. But guided by God’s spirit, God can show us in other places in His Word what these mysterious symbols represent. It is God Who provides us with "ears to hear and eyes to see."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
mcmiller:
I don't think I am being clear in what I am saying. I agree with all of you in that there is a spiritual lesson contained in every parable and that virtually everything written in the bible is a parable. Whenever we pull a lesson from the physical aspects of the parable we miss the point completely. Not that there isn't a possible lesson there, but it is not the deeper spiritual lesson that God intended. Also, I think we try to have it both ways in this regard. Take Lazarus and the Rich Man for example. The church wants to make the lesson that the wealthy of the world are condemned because they are not generous to the physically poor. Not that we shouldn't be generous, but we know that that rich man represents the religeous elite, and they are rich because they had the covenant, the law and the prophets. Knowing this, we then take the parable of the rich young ruler and make a lesson out of the command to give all that he had away and follow Christ to mean his physical wealth. That is not the lesson. If rich means the same in this parable as with Lazarus, then what he is being told to give up is his attachment to judaism (or Babylon) and all it entails and to follow Christ. That is what I mean by having it both ways. We can't take the literal sometimes to suit out agenda and the spititual at oher times. I guess the bottom line is that whether the physical aspects are actual or not is irrelevant, it's the spiritual lesson that is important, and the only way to truly know the lesson is if the Spirit of God reveals it.
Mark
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Mark
Welcome to the Forum. You have said
I don't think I am being clear in what I am saying. I agree with all of you in that there is a spiritual lesson contained in every parable and that virtually everything written in the bible is a parable.
I think I know what you are communicating and no, not virturally everything, but Absolutely everything in the bible is a parable spoken as Spirit and as Truth. The words He speaks are Spirit and Truth. Where can this be compromised? Surely there is not one dot or tittle that is not His Spirit and His Truth. I agree that the Church compromises and carnality compromises and blindness compromises yet, the Truth is not compromised by our errors, flaws or delusions. I think I see your point.
Whenever we pull a lesson from the physical aspects of the parable we miss the point completely. Not that there isn't a possible lesson there, but it is not the deeper spiritual lesson that God intended.
Looking at what you have said another way we can surely see that nothing happens, or can ever happen, that God does not intend. :) It takes His Spirit to firmly settle this in our understanding. So even the false understanding of His Parables, is part of His Plan. Make no mistake about it, Babylon is no surprise to God. God fully intended that the parables He spoke would not be understood and God fully intends to make clear His Truth when His Judgments are in the earth. You are right, only God’s Spirit can reveal this.
All the confusion, double standards, double mindedness, lawlessness, abominations, heresies, blasphemies, cover ups for hypocrisy and errors of deception through dishonesty, shall be corrected. I don’t think God will nip them in the bud either. He waits till evil is almost full blown before overtaking it in His Great stride and Power. There is no contest.
God says where sin abounds His Grace abounds much more. That is not saying where sin squeaks, God’s squeak is much louder. No. God’s Powerful response can calm the thrashing waves of the sea and hush the backward tempestuous winds. Not only that. God can cause His Saints to stand on the sea mixed with fire holding His harps in their hands.
I agree with you Mark, it does take His Spirit to understand.
Arc
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