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Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 9944 times)

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Believer

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Free Will
« on: February 15, 2010, 10:30:32 AM »

Good Day Everyone  :D

A year ago I came upon Ray's teachings and it has been amazing! Still is  :) I was a christian and I never had a day of peace in my life. There was days that I hated God for being cruel and I never understood why bad things happened in my life and why I had to go through certain phases.
I was so scared of God and it felt to me that I was being forced to love Him, because if I didn't I would go to hell...
Now for the first time in my life, I actually love God! Like in, TRUELY LOVE GOD  ;D I understand His plan now and it is actually soooooo logical. The moment I understood it, was the moment I asked myself how I could never see it! It's just amazing  :o

Well, I just wanted to declare myself a true believer of the Amazing God of the universe and EVERYTHING in it.

I just needed to know... maybe there is someone that can help me. There is just one point I can't grasp properly. Maybe I missed something Ray wrote and it made me a little confused. It's about free will.

I see the whole point that we don't have free will. I believe it. But sometimes I panick like when I have to make a choice. It feels to me that I'm doing it... and then I feel bad. I know I'm being silly. I mean, our choices was already decided from the beginning.
And then there's also one thing I try to understand. If we aren't responsible for anything, how can we be accountable? I mean, if we don't have free will, how can we be accountable?

Please help me with this. I lie awake some nights to figure this out to understand how that works. It really bothers me...
For example... if it was decided for me that I will be, say for instance, a drug addict... is it then possible to NOT be one? and if it is not, then how can I be accountable? How does that work?

I think I still have a long way to go with the new truth in my heart, but so far, these are the only points that I struggle with. I don't like to struggle with it, because I feel it is crucial especially there to fully understand.

Please help me. Anyone who understand completely. If no one can help me, is there an email address where I can contact Ray?(If I'm allowed off course).  :D

Thank you!

Yours sincerely.

Believer
 
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mharrell08

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 11:20:52 AM »

Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account):

Dear Vince:

Thank you for your email and question.

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray



Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility):

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray



Excerpt from 'Letter 2 to Dr. James Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):

RESPONSIBILITY

Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

"For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

"Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

"For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.



Hope this helps Believer and welcome to the forum. I don't have time to add personal thoughts but I'm sure the other members can help out.


Thanks,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2010, 12:54:28 PM »

Hello Believer

Welcome to the Forum.  :)

Quote
I panick like when I have to make a choice. It feels to me that I'm doing it... and then I feel bad. I know I'm being silly. I mean, our choices was already decided from the beginning.

You need not panic when you make a choice. We all make choices and it is us who are making them. God causes the circumstances where we will act out our preferences.

Choices ARE PREFERENCES that SHOW/PROVE/GIVE EVIDENCE of our Spiritual Condition.

Paul says we should discern for ourselves what our condition is before God. We do this by judging ourselves.
 
1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Only God can give anyone the experience of seeing themselves as they really are! Only God can give us the endurance to survive the sight of seeing ourselves and the encouragement through repentance to change.   8)

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.


Arc
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 12:57:20 PM by Arcturus »
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Roy Coates

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2010, 02:59:02 PM »

I have experienced some of the same things you have expressed. You have received some good info in the above responses. I might add to reread the the myth of free will exposed(four parts)http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html  portion of The Lake of Fire series. One thing I have been inspired to do while I lay awake in bed struggling with understanding is to cry out to God and beg for understanding, giving thanks for everything I can think of. Peace
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Believer

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 07:24:19 AM »

Thank you all very much! I appreciate your help  :)
I feel enlightned by especially the emails of Ray that Marques sent me. And like Roy said, I have to reread the Free Will parts of the Lake of Fire series.

Just one more thing that's not going away... God knows our choices beforehand, or do I have that wrong? Does He only have control in the way of the circumstances He brings on? I understand now that WE make the choices ourselves, but wasn't our choices decided a long time ago? And that means to me that we never really had a choice... ??? See what I mean about struggling? lol
I apologize for asking. It's just very important for me to have complete insight.

Believer

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G. Driggs

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2010, 08:49:39 AM »

Hi Believer, welcome to the forums. You ask some good questions, and you have received some good answers already, so here is another good answer from Ray that I hope helps.

Short excerpt from 'The Lake of Fire Series' The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

LEMONS TO LEMONADE?

Many Christian teachers and theologians like to look at examples such as this one with Joseph and conclude that God merely turns the lemons of Joseph’s brothers into lemonade. That is totally untrue and unscriptural. Was the selling of Joseph into Egypt as a slave (their lemons), that God then used to preserve life (His lemonade)? Is that what took place here? God used their lemons to make His lemonade? Absolutely not.

It was GOD who made these "lemons" in the first place—"GOD DID SEND ME…," and it was also God Who turned those lemons into lemonade, "…TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5b). Or as Gen. 50:20 states:

    "But as for you, ye thought evil [lemons] against me: but God meant it for good [LEMONADE], to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Joseph and his brothers is a parable for the whole plan of God, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:

God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

    "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

    "Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).

If the evil deed of selling Joseph into slavery was the "lemons," then it was GOD who made them lemons. Well doesn’t that then make God the evil One? No, no it doesn’t. Here is why. It all has to do with the intent of the heart.

From the intentions of the heart of Joseph’s brothers, the deed to sell Joseph into slavery down in Egypt was EVIL. But from the intention of the heart of GOD, the deed was one of great benevolence and righteousness! And the Scriptures actually say so in just so many words, when Joseph’s brothers did indeed bow down to him:

    "And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).

You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade. Why was this act a sin and an evil on the part of Joseph’s brothers? Because they "thought EVIL" against Joseph. And why was it NOT a sin or an evil when God takes credit for this act? Because "GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD." No, contrary to those who hate God’s ways, God is not evil, nor does He ever sin through all His dealings with evil on behalf of mankind’s good and eternal welfare.

One final point, just in case you didn’t catch it: Nowhere in any of these statements of Scripture do we see God "changing" the original evil of men into something good. No, not at all: for it was God, Himself Who is responsible for both the original act of evil and the final consummation of blessing.

Joseph plainly states that "God meant it unto good." The "it" was the evil act of Joseph’s brothers. God did not change "it" unto good. No, God meant for the "it" to take place—"it" was His doing. But God’s motivation for the "it" was for good and not evil as Joseph’s brothers intended. So God brought about the "it" by the dream that He caused Joseph to have. And it was God’s intention from the very conception of the "it" (the dirty deed) to be used for good!

And this IS how God operates. Not just with Joseph and his brothers, but with all humanity in all ages. "God is no respecter of persons," and "God changes not."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We still make choices even if they are predestined, we have to experience the choices we make that God causes us to make to know good and evil. Every choice God causes us to make, whether good or evil, is for our ultimate good and benefit. God is responsible for all the choices we make because He really knows what He is doing when He causes us to make them. He actually does have a plan with the evil choices He causes humanity to make. It's very important to experience evil in this age, whether we do the evil or whether the evil is done to us. A "few" are being are being made aware of this now in this age and are being judged now to be corrected of this evil. I'm still being judged and corrected everyday, and when I fall and stumble into sin and I dont understand why I made this or that choice, then I try to remember all is of God and no matter what, He knows whats best, and hopefully, God willing I will repent.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs





« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 08:52:08 AM by G. Driggs »
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Believer

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 05:45:20 AM »

Ok, so let me get this straight...
God has already decided what we are going to choose(like everly little and big choice), because He has a plan with it. So basically we don't have a "choice" to choose that way(when God brings on the circumstances for that choice), but we feel it as if we made the choice ourselves, even though we now know that it was predestined? Am I seeing it correctly now? So basically, God already planned the circumstances to lead to that specific choice.
So say for instance, when I have to make a choice, for example, I have to choose between overeating or eating sensible. Must I just close my eyes and make it(what's in my heart and what I want to do or feel like doing) and that choice was the choice that God chose for me in the beginning...? :-\
Is it also possible that God made us the persons we are so that we would make that specific choice?
Like if I use the eating example again: Say that God made me a person to Luuuurrrrvvveee food... so basically my choices about food will be to NOT eat sensible. Meaning also I have a weakness for food.  :P That means I will be overweight for the most of my life and have emotional problems as a result and probably also phycological problems, which will lead to me always going the unsensible way concerning food anyway to "feed my emotional appetite", like when I feel down, I eat, happy, eat, sad, eat, stressed, eat, etc. etc...
So my personality will basically be formed around this "problem", as any spesific problem can lead to certain personality traits...
Could this be true? Could all our choices be a result of our weaknesses and personality traits and the reason why God made us the way we are? And to also take that weakness and change it in due time to make it a strong point when we overcome that problems and then our choices have been predestined by the predestined change in us?

How am I doing?
 :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 10:28:30 AM »

Hi Believer

Please consider this Scripture a few times, then a few more times :D

Php 2:13  For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

Okay, now. We can only make one choice at a time. We can have millions of alternatives or options, but can only choose one choice at a time. That one choice, God knows we will choose BEFORE we choose it. Not only that! We can decide to make a choice and NOT be able to make it! God knows that too! :D

It can sound pretty frustrating but Paul also wanted to make choices and was overruled by his flesh. Ultimately God MADE Paul WANT to not sin. Then God made Paul do what pleased Him which was to be executed for his faith in Rome. Only God can make us accomplish what we want to accomplish. Only God can make us not sin. Only God can make us not want to sin.

We have to go through the process of failing miserably, and some more miserably than others, before we can come to realise that all good comes only from God and that means our good choices and their good accomplishments.

So yes, I think you are getting it.

Arc

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 02:48:57 PM »

I'm very familiar with what you are describing--these tumbling thoughts.  It's good that they tumble. 

This does not come easy.  Don't despair.  You seem to be groping towards the Light just fine.   :)

A bazillion causes have narrowed your choices at any one time to the one He knows you will make.  All of them flow from the Creator--the first Cause.  The Word of God, sound teaching, the Spirit of God working in you--all these things are also causes for choices you are making and will make--whether that be to harden your heart or humble yourself. 

This is, essentially, how the 'salvation of all' happens--one unique stiff-necked individual at a time.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Ninny

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 04:19:22 PM »

Dave,
That was beautiful..poetic..very nice..very you :)
Kathy ;)
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Kat

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 04:51:47 PM »


Hi Believer,

We all have to come to the point when we can truly accept the sovereignty of God, because He is in charge of everything, "in Him ALL things consist."

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

But this does not mean that we are mindless robots. Think about how great this work that God is doing really is. Out of all the billions of people that have live and are going to live, no two are alike. We are very complicated creatures that have minds capable of the thought process; reasonings, ideas and emotions. We have the capacity to love and feel joy and happiness, have trills and to get all excited about things.  All these things is this life that He has given us to EXPERIENCE, it is the process of us going through the motions and actually living, that God is using to create all these different individuals. No two people will come out of these life experiences the same.  

Now in this age there is also much sadness, grief, pain, all these agonies that we are suffering through as an "experience of evil" to endure and we all will be "humbled" by it, evenually.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Right now we struggle to overcome sin, because our flesh is weak and thinks that there is something to be desired in it. God is teaching us (the hard way) that there is no good in sin, nothing good at all. He is going to let us get a belly full of our carnal/fleshly/beastly ways, then he will bring us to Him, the few now, the many later.  Even though we do not have a 'free will' we each will have had a life experience and will have gained much from it. It is so hard for us to comprehend in a rational way how this will all turn out good. But I look at the bads things we must experience as a backdrop that we are forming, so that we will turly be able to appreciate the good when God opens our eyes to see the light. It is a slow hard process, gaining a knowledge of 'good and evil,' but be assured that God is going to see it through to the end, when He shall be "all in all."

1Co 15:28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

When we become one with God, in the very image of God, we will not sin anymore, that is "eonian life" that the few will reciev at His return. Later the many will be saved, because He "loves the world" and "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Praise God!!!

John 3:16 For God so loves the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not be perishing, but be having eonian life.
v. 17  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Believer

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2010, 09:16:26 AM »

Thank you  ;D
I believe that I finally understand it. I feel more peace now.

To be honest, I'm glad that I don't have free will... just imagine what would have happened if the human race had had that  :-\ I feel more safe with God in control.
Also, since I read the truth and understood it the way Ray teaches, I realize that so many religions don't know how GREAT and POWERFUL our God is. With new knowledge, I finally feel how small I am and that we have no idea about the awsomeness of God  8) well, I can only imagine. I can't wait to see God and Jesus! WOW!

Thank you for all the input and for helping me see clearer. I appreciate it seriously! Thanks to God for wonderful peeps like you to help your fellow believers!

 :D
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Craig

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 10:01:26 AM »

The hardest thing to grasp about free will is the fact that we have free choice.

We are free to choose whatever path and decision we want, we never make a choice against our will.  But what causes us to make the choices we do?  Our upbringing, our environment and the way we were created, to name a few.  We just don't realize the choices we make are due to outside influences, our choices appear to be of our free will.  We are all beasts.

The hard part for me is the choices that are forced on people.  A young lady is not choosing to be raped, a child is not choosing to be kidnapped and murdered, etc.  But that has more to do with the evil in the world than any of our choices.  We are subject to these evils because we are being created in the image of God, to know good and evil and once God becomes all in all our choices will only be to do good we will have experienced or did evil and will learn/know the consequences.  What is 70-80 years on earth when it comes to the bigger picture of living in the ages with God as his children? the time in our physical bodies is just a blink.

Free will is the hardest thing to grasp that I have been privilaged to learn.  I still struggle with it, not that we don't have free will; I struggle with the depth of evil that exists and mans choices to carry it out.  That is hardest thing to grasp.

Craig
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Ninny

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 11:07:27 AM »

Yes, Craig..you're right...this is the hardest part to understand..maybe one day we will..
Kathy :-\
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Roy Coates

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 02:06:11 PM »

The hardest thing to grasp about free will is the fact that we have free choice./quote]

My understanding of Ray's teaching is that free will and free choice are the same thing. We have a will and we make choices but they are by no means free. If there is (and there always are) any cause, influence, preference or what ever else you call it then it is not free.

Ray likened it to placing an order at a resturaunt "have you made a choice it" "thr brisket is excelent today" "ok I was going to have this but I will have that" The choice made was not free it was based on what the resturaunt wait staff suggested.

Ray covers free choices here in the last paragraph

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=5154.0

Now is free will, making a choice?  Let’s look at the definition of choose.
Choose - To select from a number of possible alternatives (The American Heritage college Dictionary). 
That’s what choose is.  Where do you see free will in that?  Where is it free? 
You look at something, your brain says I can have this or that….how is that free?  So you just select what you prefer, don’t forget that.  We’ll learn what that word ‘free’ means, it’s not free at all.  So what is choice?  You select what you prefer!
 
You look at a menu and you make a choice.  Sometimes your waitress will say, ‘have you made a choice yet’?  You say, ‘yes I choose this, I was going to choose that , but I’ll choose this.  Well you know the more I think about it, I think I’ll choose that.’  And your waitress will say, ‘you know our briskets are very good today.’  ‘Then I’ll have that.’ 
You are still just selecting what you prefer.  Your brain says, ‘Ah brisket, that sounds good and juicy, yea that.’  Something makes you, make that choice, you see.  But there is nothing in the definition, to select what you prefer.  There is nothing to do with freedom in there, nothing what so ever, you just select. 

I have said in my paper and many times in conversation that computers make choices. 
Now I have had people send me emails and take exception from that.  This week two people sent me an email in the same day, so this must be floating around out there.
 
There was an article that appeared in the NY Times about Free will.  So some of the things I’ve got was from there.  But here’s what Seth Lloyd says; “If by free will you mean the ability to choose, then a simple laptop computer has some kind of free will.”
There it is.  Isn’t that what I’ve been saying for years, computers make choices.  Right there a scientist says, it has some kind of free will.  Seth Lloyd is an expert on quantum computing and professor of mechanical engineering of the Mass. Institute of Technology.  This guy is not a moron, he’s somebody in the scientific field.  He said if we mean by free will…choices, then laptop computers have that ability. 

But we are going to learn later on, that we are not only talking about free will, but you’ve heard this expression ‘free moral agency.’  That’s kind of lumped in with free will, are they one and the same thing?  Well what they want you to believe is this, if you have free-will, you have what is in effect free moral agency.  Meaning you have the ability to select between what is morally right and sinfully wrong.  You have that power, and you will be held accountable accordingly.  We’re going to find out what a bunch of trash that is. 

Not only laptop computers, but animals make choices.  Animals!  My cats choose between eating something and not eating.  I put something out and Stumpy will come up, smell it and he’ll walk away.  But Furby and Tabby will come up and they’ll smell it and it’s like oh yummy and they eat it.  One made a choice to eat it and one made a choice not to eat it.  They’re animals, for crying out loud.  Are you telling me that animals have free moral agency, theological free moral agency?  Are you telling me that?  Is there any theologian alive that would tell me that?  Well then get off this kick, that free moral agency is the ability to make choices, that’s nonsense.
There’s Baby, she makes choices, Baby is our cat too.  Cats make choices.  Cats don’t have free moral agency!  I believe I said that in my paper. 

We all make choices, you select between which one you prefer.  We’re talking about not only choices, but ‘free’ choices.  So let’s look at the word free.
Free - not determined by A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G beyond its own nature or being. (Webster’s Collegiate) 
There it is.  Free, not determined by ANYTHING.  That’s true freedom, you see. 
Here’s another one, from the American Heritage College Dictionary.  Free - not controlled by obligation or the will of another. 
Now do you have something in you, that is not controlled by anything, except you?  No one else or nothing else, only you control that?  Do you have such a thing?  That’s the question.  Cause if you do, you are a god for sure.  But we are going to find out you don’t have such a thing.  That’s not how the human psyche works, the human mind, or the human brain.  It just does not work that way.
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Craig

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2010, 03:23:08 PM »

See the many facets of free will/choice.

I am in complete agreement with Ray on this.  Ray, makes it easier by encompassing the meaning of both terms to mean the same thing.  I was trying to point out (and probably failing) that God does not make us choose anything that goes against our wills.  God may be responsible for bringing about the forces that cause us to choose what we do, but we are accountable for the choices we make, because that is our will.  We think our choices are free but they are not, they are made by outside and inside influences.  In my thought process, it is easier for me to grasp if I separate choice and will (but neither are really free).

Now let me really stir the pot. 
Do we ever make choices against our will?

I can't think of a time that a person chooses to do evil against their will, unless I guess, someone holds a gun to your families head and tells you to murder someone.  But are you really doing evil then?  Is the murderous desire really in your heart?

1)  What about choosing to do good when our will is to do evil, do we do this? 
2)  And if so what is the outcome?

   1) Sure we choose to do good when evil is in our hearts all the time.  Let's say I lust after a woman that is not my wife but I choose not to give into the lust and have an affair.  Why? because I know that it would get me in trouble with my wife, friends, children, financially, because scripture/the law warns me not to, etc.  If I lust after a diamond ring at a friends house or a department store do I just take it?  No, because I do not want to end up in jail, disappointing loved ones going against God's law, etc, etc.  In both examples I've chosen to do good when evil is really in my heart.

   2) So what is the outcome?   I am held as much accountable in both cases, in God's eyes, as if I had done the evil deeds.  It is all from the heart.  It doesn't matter that I don't physically break the law.  In God's eye if I look at a woman with lust I have committed adultery.  If I lust after a ring in my heart I have broken the spiritual law.

So where am I going with this?  I don't know.....It just seems like people are almost frozen with fear about their choices, and they shouldn't be.  Live your lives and let God change your hearts.  Changing our hearts is not going to be always pleasant, as our hearts are nearly always in disagreement with God.  It is the fire and trials of life and bad and good choices that purifies our heart and bends our will to that of God's.  Don't be frozen with fear, listen to the still small voice inside you and make your choice and live your life. As God changes our wills that small voice grows larger and larger, and our choices easier and easier. 

One of Ray's favorite scripture quotes is "For when Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)"   Learn Righteousness is key here.  It doesn't say "they will be given" is says will LEARN. 

That learning does not come easy.

Craig
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2010, 03:56:40 PM »

Quote
our hearts are nearly always in disagreement with God

A weak and unpurified heart can not be in agreement with God. A converted heart can and will be in the image of God's own Heart.

 It is so painful to think that our choices are not in perfect parallel with God and for me this is the walk in faith that until God purifies me, I have to walk faultingly, erroneously and haltingly before Him trusting His Hand will not let me slip or fall. That is perhaps how God is teaching me to trust in Him more and more 8) Cool but painful!

Arc

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Joel

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2010, 09:14:11 PM »

Halo believer  :)
Some time ago, when I was at my lowest point in sin, the Words from Revelations came to mind---thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. And I replied-- yes Lord, but I KNOW IT! what are You going to do about that?
My life has been changing for the better ever since, not yet perfect by a long shot, but not as wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, as I was then, THATS FOR SURE!!!
Thanks be to God, for Ray, and each, and every one of YOU.
Joel
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Dawidos

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2010, 04:32:40 PM »

Have you ever heard about Thomas Talbott, the author of The Inescapable Love of God, who is one of the most prominent voices today supporting the idea of universal salvation? He has provided an interesting insight into the problem of evil and free will, which I found very consistent with LRS's teachings. Below the excerpt from Wikipedia.

In the September 1987 edition of the periodical Christian Scholar's Review, Talbott sought, as he explains in a more recent comment, "to make some ideas then current in the philosophical literature available to a wider audience of non-philosophers."[2] He sought to explain, for example, how [[Alvin Plantinga's] Free Will Defense had transformed the way in which contemporary philosophers approach the so-called problem of evil and why, in particular, even atheistic philosophers came to abandon the claim that evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of God. But at the end of this article, Talbott also ventured into more controversial territory, suggesting ways in which even the tragic suffering of innocent children might contribute, in the end, to the future blessedness of all people (including the children who suffer). In accordance with his affirmation of universal reconciliation, he thus expressed the hopeful belief that "every innocent child who suffers will one day look upon that suffering as a privilege because of the joy it has made possible: the joy of knowing that one has been used by God in the redemption of others, the joy of that final union or reunion in which love's triumph is complete and all separation from others is finally overcome. I would ask but two things of those who [might understandably] reject such a view: first, that they resist the temptation to moralize, and second, that they consider the alternatives carefully.

Issue of free will doesn't need our comments, but what about meaning of suffering described above in the case of children? I'm wondering if the Scripture but God meant it [evil] unto good is the spiritual manifestation of this view. Do you think every evil and suffering (for example nazi camps) is meant unto good in the final outcome by God? I think so, and I think LRS thinks the same way, but I don't remember where he has talked about it.

PS. Recently I've been searching "Modern Christian Universalists database" (in other words people teaching about christian salvation nowadays), trying to find the teachers similiar to LRS.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2010, 04:34:48 PM by Dawidos »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Free Will
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2010, 10:26:39 PM »

I don't think it's more teaching that we need, but more meditation, contemplation, consideration, living with this truth, humility, and wrestling with God over it.  To paraphrase one of Ray's emails...'meditate on this for 1000 hours and get back to me'.  This demonic doctrine doesn't go out easily.

Since the OP 'Believer' has already replied with thanksgiving and understanding, let's not beat it to death...until the next person asks.  ;)
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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