Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mharrell08]

The following is simply a reminder regarding the spiritual condition the Lord made us in. I've noticed we have referred to the human heart as 'wicked' when in actuality, it was made spiritually weak.


Excerpt from Lake of Fire part 15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html):

IT ALL STARTS WITH THE HEART

ALL have sinned because it takes SPIRITUAL POWER not to sin. And God did not give our first parents that kind of spiritual power. They were spiritually weak as water.

We read in Jer. 17:9:

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We know from Scripture that God "…creates EVIL…" (Isa. 45:7), but did He also create man’s heart in a "desperately wicked" state? No, He did not. God did not FORCE upon man, at creation, a "desperately WICKED" heart. Let’s read this verse from the Jewish Publication Society,

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, And it is EXCEEDING WEAK—who can know it."

God did not create man’s heart "desperately wicked" as the KJV suggest, but rather He did create the human heart, "exceeding WEAK."

The seat of emotions and desires is the HEART. And God made the heart "exceeding WEAK." Man did not sin because he "freely willed" to sin, but because his heart was so exceedingly WEAK. That is why it takes next to nothing to persuade the heart of man to DESIRE SIN.

Jesus Christ Himself taught us that EVIL THOUGHTS, MURDERS, BLASPHEMIES, ADULTERIES, etc., all start, begin, originate, proceed, out from THE HEART.

Once the heart senses a feeling or emotion, it begins to desire something. These very thoughts of desire emanate out from the heart, seeking fulfillment. At this point in the process the will is manifested. It now becomes the driving force within you to accomplish the thoughts and emotions of the heart. The will is not the original instigator in this chain of events; it is not even the second in line, but rather the third.

    *      The will of man has no power until first his heart DESIRES,
   
    *      Second these desires are formed into actual THOUGHTS,
   
    *      Then at this third stage the will purposes to find fulfillment for all that is coming out of the heart.

The heart played a huge role in Adam’s decision to also partake of the forbidden fruit. In I Tim. 2:14 we read this:

    "And Adam was NOT deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Why did Adam sin if he was NOT deceived as his wife was? Again, the answer goes back to THE HEART.

Adam LOVED his wife dearly. He never wanted to be separated from her. But he knew that the wages of eating the forbidden tree was to be death. But did he fully comprehend all that death entailed? Probably not. But whatever the penalty would be or how it would be carried out, Adam knew that he did not want to be separated from his wife. Notice what He said to God:

    "And the man said, The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." (Gen. 3:12).

Isn’t that interesting. Adam did not say: "The woman whom you gave TO ME." Or, "The woman whom you gave FOR ME." But rather, "The woman whom you gave to be WITH ME." Adam reminded God that He created Eve to be ‘WITH’ him, not apart from him. And if Adam had obeyed God, whereas his wife did not, he feared being SEPARATED from Eve. And so he also ate of the fruit and sinned, not because he was deceived as Eve was, but because he loved her in his heart so much that he couldn’t bear the thought of not being "WITH" her.

And so, did Adam "freely" WITHOUT A CAUSE choose to eat the forbidden fruit? What nonsense. Adam had the BIGGEST REASON in the world that CAUSED him to sin and remain with his wife!

So if you are looking for "free" will in the Garden at the time of our first parents' creation, forget it, 'cause it ain’t there!

Also, this should help us in getting 'over the hump' in disbelieving in 'free will'. Free will is a myth...it does not exist. There is no point in wondering/debating if a person once had, will have it one day, Satan has/had it, or even God has it.

A will does not originate ANYTHING...no matter who's it is. It all begins at the heart, which then becomes thoughts, which then leads to one's will or plan to accomplish these thoughts and desires. The more we give homage to this idol, in some form or fashion, as if it is real...then it will be real, FOR US [as a man thinks, so he is (Ps 23:7)].

Basically, the thought of one's will being 'free' is never true since it does not originate anything...but simply adheres to one's thoughts and desires. Just something of a reminder and to be mindful of.


Thanks,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

It all begins at the heart

Thank you Marques for this post! 

You make the connection to the error in believing in free will. This highlights for me that the CONDITION of the heart is a prelude or a starting point, that pre-empts, anticipates and predicts the actions or responses of a person to a circumstance. God knows what we shall or shall not do or say, think or believe, BEFORE we do or think anything. God owns our emotions. He knows our fears. He feels our uncertainties and He is no stranger to our infirmities.

You post makes it more visible how much we need to acknowledge our dependence on Him. We actually depend, rely and urgently require HIM as our most vital need to change, elevate, strengthen, support and fortify our hearts with HIS Spirit.  We can not see our own hearts except by the consequences of our actions. We do not know our own hearts until we see our own fruits of our spirits, thoughts and feelings. We do not see like God sees unless God causes us to see as He does.

1Sa 16:7  But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

We cannot change or alter our spiritual condition. It is only through the Spirit of Christ that our hearts can be converted, changed, cleansed and prepared for the love and Spirit of God to find its habitation within us which is going to happen when He is all in all.
 
The addictive, seductive and widely held error in perception that anyone can be in control of anything be it actions, thoughts or dispositions, shows us again, the enormity of deception over so many people of all walks of life. This dark error has reached far wider than into just Christianity. It pervades everywhere and everyone, except those few, who have been blessed to see through the lie.
God has lifted us, who believe, out of error, freeing us from deception, liberating us out of bondage, and loving us into that freedom that is typified in the wholeness of Christ His Son. God cleans us up, changes our countenance and blesses us with the understanding of the Spirit, Heart and Mind of His Son Jesus Christ.

We can certainly say Thank God that His Will for us to be in the Image of His Son, He will finish and complete! What a glorious gift God has prepared for His Children.

Arc

[Silvia Martin]

well said, Arc

   Silvia

[LiberatedEagle]

I was just going over scriptures last night that debunks the myth of free will, but first I want to ask did anyone see the Oprah show yesterday? There was a guy who was molested and raped by his mother starting at 8 yrs old. Not only did she molest him, but forced him to have sex with her when he was 10. To make things worse she would prostitute him out and tell him that if he didn't prostitute they would lose their house and become homeless and the people she was in debt to would come and cut off his genitals. In spite of all he endured by the hands of his mother he still loved her. He felt she was the only thing he had in this world, so he would brainwash himself into believing that it really wasn't his mother abusing him, but someone else.

Now as an adult you can still see the pain in his eyes. Emotionally he has been scarred and every decision he makes, every interaction with the world will be influenced by the emotional pain he's had to endure because of this horrific experience. Where is the free will here? Did he "will" or choose that his mother treats him like a sex slave? Did he "will" or choose for that experience to have a tremendous effect on his life and every decision he would make? Of course not. If any man has the idea that this man experienced this as a child, but he eventually grew up and when his "free will kicked in" it's up to him whether he allows this to influence his life, is totally absurd. It's so simple to see the sovereignty of God once he takes the veil off of our eyes.

Here's one of the scriptures that stood out to me last night:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption: it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory; It is sown in WEAKNESS; It is raised in power; It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corithians 15:42-44

[Samson]

Thanks Marques,

                        This sort of indirectly reminds me of the Principle of " Tunnel Vision " we have in remembering things and Our individual focus in processing information as expressed from Craigs Thread regarding " Basketball Passes." Why do I say that ? Because when reading and studying Ray's material, certain Truths stand out more than others, individually speaking. For me, it was at this Site through Ray that I discovered that Jeremiah. 17:9 was translated wrong: " exceedingly weak" instead of " desperately wicked." It stood out for me because in my former Denominational persuasion, that Scripture was used extensively and drummed into Our heads about " Our Hearts can become desperately Wicked and we had to use Our "Free Will" to fight against sinful tendencies, so as not to develop a wicked Heart. Yet they would say we can't know Our Hearts, as the rest of that passage states, but only God can search out Our Hearts and Intentions. So, it was an important Truth for me to know that We were Created with Hearts( desires, Lusts) that are exceedingly weak like Adam and Eve. Thanks for starting this thread.

                                 Kind Regards, Samson.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thanks Silvia. I am glad you got something out of that.

After reading what Samson wrote, I began to think about weakness being the condition that manifests wickedness. In other words, don't you think that weakness goes hand in hand with wickedness? I don't think the  two are separate.

Then in the Scripture posted by Liberated Eagle, we are reminded that there is a natural body and a spiritual body. Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

We know that God frames us and keeps us within the bounds of His frame when it comes to our acting out the natural impulses to be wicked. As Ray says, we are sinning machines. God puts the bounds on just how far He lets anyone of us express the weakness/wicked propensity of our hearts.

Again, we can thank God for not causing us to rise to the infamous levels of some people who stand out for their evil deeds. We could have been one of them.

This also brings forward the gratitude we can have towards our Maker that we are kept back from doing evil which is not because of any goodness we have, but due to the Mercy of God, that we do not participate in some of the most horrific acts of evil common to the flesh and weak heart of human kind. We really depend on God for His goodness to convert our flesh into that body of His Spirit!

Arc

[cheekie3]

Marcus -

This is a great post full of the Truths of Scripture regarding sin, our will, and how and why Adam and Eve made their choices.

Regards, cheekie3.