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Author Topic: Olam?  (Read 2771 times)

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Lupac

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Olam?
« on: February 16, 2010, 01:19:22 PM »

Okay, I've read Ray's paper on aionios, and I think I've gotten it down pretty well, but one thing tripping me up is the meaning of olam, specifically as used in Genesis 3:22

Quote
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever (olam)

What exactly is this saying. It seems that living for an "olam" is the opposite of dieing. Any help? Thanks.
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daywalker

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2010, 01:37:04 PM »

Okay, I've read Ray's paper on aionios, and I think I've gotten it down pretty well, but one thing tripping me up is the meaning of olam, specifically as used in Genesis 3:22

Quote
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever (olam)

What exactly is this saying. It seems that living for an "olam" is the opposite of dieing. Any help? Thanks.


When the Hebrew Scriptures where translated into Greek [Septuagint], "olam" was translated into "aion". So they are synonymous.


Here's the verse you presented from the Concordant:

Gen 3:22 And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he stretch forth his hand, moreover, and take of the tree of the living, and eat and live for the eon--!


Hope this helps,

Daywalker. 8)
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Lupac

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2010, 02:14:28 PM »

Thanks for responding. I know what it says. But knowing what it says and what it means are two different things. What would living to the eon mean, in that passage?
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mharrell08

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2010, 02:51:45 PM »

Thanks for responding. I know what it says. But knowing what it says and what it means are two different things. What would living to the eon mean, in that passage?


Lupac,

'Living to the eon' is the same as life in the eon, or next eon to be exact.

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html):

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

    "…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

    "all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39).

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out. As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn’t even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God’s own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."

In verse 50 below, the phrase “…that a man may eat thereof, and NOT DIE,” needs to be addressed, as this KJV translation sounds as though believers will not die, or maybe not EVER die. This assuredly is not the case.

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on Me has everlasting life [Gk: ‘eonian life’]. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead [‘and died’]. (John 6:47-49).

    This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and NOT DIE [Greek aorist {indefinite} = ‘may not BE DYING’]. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever [Gk: ‘eon’—for the age]…" (Verses 50-51).

    …Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal [Gk: ‘aionios/eonian,’ not ‘eternal’] life; and I will raise him up at the last day… (Verses 53-54).

    This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead [‘and died’]: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever [Gk: ‘for the eon’—age]" (Verse 58).

These faulty translations "contradict sound doctrine" (Titus 1:9).

Many may feel that verse 50 teaches clearly that a Believer will "not [ever] die." But are these verses really teaching that if we believe in Jesus and eat of Him, that we will never ever die? No, of course not. Bear with me for a few minutes, as what you are about to learn is of paramount importance.

The Jews insisted that, "…as it is written, He [God] gave them bread from heaven to eat" (John 6:31). But how did Jesus respond to their statement and quotation from the Hebrew Scriptures?

    "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you NOT that bread from heaven; but MY Father gives you the true bread from heaven… I am the bread of life…" (Verses 32 & 35).

Those who eat of Christ, "the bread of life," have life. What kind of life?

Verse 54 in the King James says "eternal life." But the Greek knows nothing of "eternal" life, but rather "eonian" life. Eonian life is a gift:

    "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal [Gk: ‘eonian’] life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

But has any saint since Pentecost actually been given eonian life without ever dying first? No. What saith the Scriptures: "For in Adam all die…" (I Cor. 15:22). What then is the only hope of ALL believers who die in Adam? Why the resurrection from the dead, of course. Pathetically and ironically, what most Christians consider a totally useless doctrine, Paul tells us is our only hope of ever living again after we die.

So do we enter eternal life upon death, as Christendom teaches? NO, let’s read it:

    "So also is the resurrection of the DEAD [notice please, that nowhere in Scripture does it speak of the Christian doctrine of the resurrection of the LIVING, or of the resurrection of the BODY], it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body… the first Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [that would be Jesus] was made a quickening [living] SPIRIT" (I Cor. 15:42-46)

Not a quickening PHYSICAL body.

Notice that we are first made a "natural body." Adam (and all of his children—that’s US), did not have an "immortal soul," did he? His body was a "natural" body. Only Jesus was made a "living SPIRIT." It says so right here. Can the natural man with a natural body of flesh and blood ever enter into the Kingdom of God? "…flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" (Ver. 50). Does the orthodox Christian Church teach that we will have PHYSICAL BODIES in the Kingdom of God? Yes, yes they do—but then again, none of their doctrines are from the Scriptures. "It is raised [from the dead] a SPIRITUAL BODY" (Ver. 44).

Do these verses contradict the verses we have been reading in John 6? No, of course not. But didn’t John 6:50 say, "…that a man may eat thereof [of Christ], and NOT DIE?" The Believing Elect of God will not die as did the fathers in the wilderness who ate NOT of that true Bread from heaven. The answer is that we will "not die FOR THE EON" (John 11:26), because we have "eternal [eonian] life in us" (John 6:54).


DO BELIEVERS ALREADY POSSESS EONIAN LIFE?

How much eonian life do we have in us? Will we not ever die since we have "eonian life" abiding in us at present? Do we have Scripture on that? No we don’t. But do we have a Scripture that says the amount of "life" which we do have in us is a sure promise that we WILL LIVE with Jesus throughout the coming eons? Yes we do:

    "…ye are sealed with that holy SPIRIT of promise [‘promise’ of WHAT?] which is the EARNEST [Gk: ‘down payment or deposit’] of our [future] inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

Well there it is, UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession." And when do we get that? We were already reading about it in I Cor. 15. Let’s read this entire section of Scripture as it is the whole plan of God from the creation of Adam down to the "redemption of the purchased possession" of the Few Chosen Elect Saints of God:

    "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural, and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    "As is the earthy, such are they also which are earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have born the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep [According to Christendom, no one will ever sleep. They contradict by saying there is no such thing as sleep in death, but they lie: Psalm 13:3, ‘Consider and hear me O my God…lest I sleep the sleep OF DEATH’], but we shall all be changed [When? This is so important. WHEN shall we be changed? At the instant that all believers DIE? NO…], In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump [Then, and only then, and at NO OTHER TIME IN HISTORY!]: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead [The ‘dead,’ mind you, not the living, but the dead] shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"

    "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

This is the reason we continue to live after the eons are over. Not because we were promised something called "eternal or everlasting life," but because at the resurrection we will be given "incorruption and immortality," which means "death-less-ness".

    "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

When? When will death be "swallowed up in victory?" When we die? Do people really die and go to heaven? Where do the Scriptures teach any such pagan doctrine? It is at "the resurrection of the dead" that death is swallowed up in victory, and not one second earlier. Then, we will literally "be saved" as all the Scriptures teach.

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?" Excuse me… ‘Oh grave?’ Oh really? Ten times the Holy Spirit inspired the Greek word "hades" to be used, and nine of those ten times the King James translates hades as "hell." But in this only solitary verse of I Cor. 15:55, they translated it "grave." Do you know why? I’ll tell you why. Because theologians wanted to protect their pagan doctrine of eternal punishment in hades at all cost, even if that meant fraudulently being inconsistent with the Greek word "hades."

The translators did not want the people to know that there is "victory" over their unscriptural pagan hell, that’s why! Read it:

    "O death, where is your sting? O grave [hades] where is your victory?

The Greek "hades" is the Christian hell. But God is telling the whole world in this verse that hades will have no victory over the dead. The saints are redeemed from hades, as did David also attest:

    "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave [Heb: ‘power of sheol,’ and Strong defines the Hebrew word ‘sheol’ as the Greek word ‘hades’]…" (Psalm 49:15).

There is REDEMPTION from sheol/hades, and there will be NO VICTORY for sheol/hades, and this is no small part of the "Good News Gospel" which the Church of Babylon has hid from the eyes of all Christendom. You are now learning the Truth of God’s Scriptures, not the evil pagan fantasies of Christendom.

Now then, back to John 6 once more. Do all these Scriptures we just read in I Corinthians 15 (which totally contradict the "die and go to heaven" myth of Christendom) agree with what we were reading about "NOT DIE" and "by no means should be DYING FOR THE EON" in John 6:50 and 11:26? Absolutely.

There is a phrase in John 6 that Jesus repeats several times. A phrase that Christian theologians and preachers and teachers seem to be oblivious to, and yet, that phrase pin-points the exact time WHEN our "eonian life" will begin, and it agrees word for word with I Corinthians 15 and the rest of the Bible. Notice the verses of Scripture leading up to John 11:26 already discussed. What do the Scriptures tell us will happen "at the last day?" Verse 24 answers it

    "Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day" (John 11:24).

The "last day" is the "the resurrection" from the dead. Next notice how Jesus answered her:

    "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believes in Me, though he were dead [Margin reads: ‘may die’], yet shall he live: And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall never die [Gk: ‘should by no means be dying for the eon]. Believe you this?" (Verses 25-26).

Now if everyone reading this in the King James does not see a blatant contradiction, then they must be blind. Notice what the King James says:

[1] If someone believes in Christ and then dies, yet shall he live, contradicts:

[2] If someone believes in Christ, he will never die.

Am I going to fast for any one?

I apologize for the length of these rather technical sections on the Scriptures, but I am trying to make it as simple as I can. We are now really getting down to the nuts and bolts; the nitty and the gritty of True Scriptural Doctrine. The Scriptures tell us that the Kingdom of the Heavens is like a treasure hid in a field. This parable tells us that the spiritual treasures of God’s Word must be sought after with great diligence. People don’t let treasures lying around in open fields for all to take at their leisure.

And remember it is God Who has hidden these spiritual treasures. The Church does not believe that these treasures are hidden at all. That is why they are deceived by their unscriptural belief that the Bible is to be taken "literally," and that everything is only understood in "context, context, context." They refuse to believe that Jesus spoke in parables to hide the meaning of His teachings. They refuse to believe that it is God Himself who deceives the false prophets:

    "And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet" (Ezek. 14:9).

Stay with it. Don’t give up, thinking that this is too complicated. Read it over and over and over again, and it will begin to show crystal clear.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Roy Coates

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2010, 06:18:53 PM »

Outstanding excerpt mharrell. Great refresher. I used this excerpt in some discussions with my pastors when I left the church. They couldn't see it but that couldn't prove it wrong. They just folded saying "we don't have time for this discussion" Funny the discussion was being conducted via email they had all the time they needed. Truth prevailed.

Good question Lupac, keep reading, keep asking.

Praise God
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Lupac

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2010, 12:25:28 AM »

Thank you Marques, that was very helpful. I'm still reading the LoF series, again. There's so much in there. Here's a question Ray hasn't touched on all too much, but it's of great worry to me. Okay... The "unpardonable sin", I know, I shouldn't be worried about it, here's the verse in question:

Quote
Mark 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness*, but is in danger of eternal damnation*2:

*Greek says "shall not be forgiven to the age".

*2 Grek says "eionion judgment".

What does that mean? I continually worry that I have committed that sin, or that someone has, and they won't be forgiven. Thanks again.
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Roy Coates

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2010, 12:43:35 AM »

There are many but here is one response from Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=352.0
If you blaspheme agianst the Holy Spirit, can you repent in this age and not be chastised for it in the age to come?  I think I may have called the Holy Spirit "satan" at one point, and have been pretty worried for awhile.....If your able to send me an answer it would be greatly appreciated, thanks.  And thank you so much for your site, it's set me free.           
                                                                -Brian

Dear Brian:

People who blaspheme the the Holy Spirit of God have absolutely no remorse for doing so.  Therefore, I think you can rest assured that if you feel sorrow over possibly haven committed this sin, you probably haven't.  So repent and go on with your life seeking God's will daily.  Blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God is not a one-time sin that just accidently happens to certain people. For those who commit this sin, it is a way of life, that they will not repent of in this life.

God be with you,

Ray
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2010, 01:00:28 AM »

Thank you Marques, that was very helpful. I'm still reading the LoF series, again. There's so much in there. Here's a question Ray hasn't touched on all too much, but it's of great worry to me. Okay... The "unpardonable sin", I know, I shouldn't be worried about it, here's the verse in question:

Quote
Mark 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness*, but is in danger of eternal damnation*2:

*Greek says "shall not be forgiven to the age".

*2 Grek says "eionion judgment".

What does that mean? I continually worry that I have committed that sin, or that someone has, and they won't be forgiven. Thanks again.

Please note this is all one sentence.

Mat 12: 31-32 (Rotherham)
31 Wherefore, I say unto you, All sin and profane speaking, shall be forgiven unto men,—but, the speaking profanely of the Spirit, shall not be forgiven;
32 And, whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him,—but, whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or the coming.

george :).

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Olam?
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2010, 09:15:08 AM »

Quote
It is at "the resurrection of the dead" that death is swallowed up in victory, and not one second earlier

 - what is happening to death now? –

Every page of truth written and displayed by BT through Ray Smith and Dennis Vogel facilitating the delivery of Gods light to our eyes and hearts, is lighting our way out of the dark lies of Babylon that  is lifting, healing, restoring our souls and minds to come closer to the wholeness and sanity of Christ. Is this not  a type of resurrection?  We stand against the lies, we know we can not join in with our oppressors, we realize that we do not persecute others, we remain unfazed against envy and fear that opposes us as we are nurtured by His Spirit to see Him more clearly and understand, recognize and agree with the Truth of His Spirit and Love. There are only a few of us.

The  Spirit of Christ within is alive,  stirring,  rising up, is not dormant or inactive, but is preparing a people for His Kingdom. How far God has taken us and how near He draws us to when…He, God,..

Rev 21:4  … God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It makes sense that the “former things” that are to “pass away” will occur at the resurrection of the dead and as Ray expresses, not one second earlier. So the process to this end has begun.

We accept that we have to experience Revelations in our own experience. We concede that God is going to burn away false doctrines and errors out of us with His purging Spiritual Fire. Yet, we see that the Apostate Church system has advanced, not declined in wicked subtleties. We know that God is causing the heightened evil in the world that is expressed in the sorrow Paul recorded when he cried for three years due to the sight of wolves coming in who would not spare the flock and Timothy who warns us of easy doctrines leading many astray.

Yet, this apostasy is happening OUTSIDE of us. It does not matter how big evil gets. Well it shouldn’t matter because the Spirit of God works from INSIDE of us continually  separating us  from false beliefs that still hold many hostage to error outside. God’s Spirit  purges, purifies and exhibits that His Son is the Way we too shall follow, that His Son is the Truth we too shall come to know, and His Son is the Life that we too are appointed to live. Just like the Hebrews who leaving Egypt, had to pass over the point of no return, we too are dragged out of Babylon by the Spirit of God rising up within us.  We experience Babylon’s recession inside of us not outside where evil continues to beget evil.

We had to pass that point of no return to realize that Babylon is no longer an option for us. We had to cross over that frontier of what is not possible for us but only made possible by God and His work and intervention.  It is God’s Spirit that has drawn us away from lies into the glorious light and Truth of Christ who does not dwell in the world but He is inside US where He is opening our spiritual eyes from within. He is not the property or monopoly of any one of us but yet with us, among us in Spirit and in Truth He is witnessed through our gratitude and joy for the work and glory that God is doing for us and His Son to whom we are being dragged.

Though the apostate system of Harlot Babylon continues in the wayward world around us, we can say with express conviction that THAT SYSTEM is one to which we no longer belong or participate. Christ is not seen by Harlot eyes and not heard with Babylonian ears and for me this is what is happening to death now.

Rev 18:8  Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Arc
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 09:20:56 AM by Arcturus »
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2010, 11:43:50 AM »

Thank you Marques, that was very helpful. I'm still reading the LoF series, again. There's so much in there. Here's a question Ray hasn't touched on all too much, but it's of great worry to me. Okay... The "unpardonable sin", I know, I shouldn't be worried about it, here's the verse in question:

Quote
Mark 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness*, but is in danger of eternal damnation*2:

*Greek says "shall not be forgiven to the age".

*2 Grek says "eionion judgment".

What does that mean? I continually worry that I have committed that sin, or that someone has, and they won't be forgiven. Thanks again.

Hey Lupac,

We went over this very subject back in December...do you remember?

FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10996.msg95661.html#msg95661


Marques
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Lupac

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2010, 11:46:19 AM »

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. I'm reading it.
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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2010, 12:49:26 PM »

Thanks, I had forgotten about that. I'm reading it.

Just a Friendly reminder Lupac,

   Based on Marques last Post, almost, if not all of the questions Forum members ask, was usually presented in past Threads on General Discussions, sometimes more than once. Examples: 1) The unforgivable or unpardonable sin. 2) Jesus having a beginning or Begotten. 3) Free Will(Countless Times).
4) What constitutes Divorce. 5) Satan, Demons, Angels, etc. 6) Names or Titles of God(Jehovah, Yahweh, I Am, God The Father. 7) What happens after the Resurrection. These are just some of the examples that come to mind. It would probably be a good idea if all of us check the History of General Discussions prior to asking a question. I remember going from the oldest page and working my way to the current page and discovering how much is rehashed. You will probably find your answer. An example of me applying this is when I first arrived at the Forum and discovered that Jehovah isn't The Father, but refers to Jesus in the Old Testament(Hebrew-Aramaic Scriptures) and reacting to myself with " What, that can't be." Rather than asking questions first and/or challenging Forum Members or impulsively Emailing Ray, I researched this subject and was more than satisfied with Ray's explanation. With all this said, I'm not implying you challenge Forum members or your starting trouble or anything like that. It's just a sugestion to aid you in finding the answer, don't worry, it won't take that long,  ;D.

                        Kind Regards, Samson.  ;)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Olam?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2010, 01:51:19 PM »


Hey Samson

I hope that our answers get better the more we are asked them! :D

Arc
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