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Author Topic: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?  (Read 12354 times)

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gohaley

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Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« on: February 17, 2010, 08:19:16 PM »

The Evolution of animals from a common ancester is a bogus theory to most Christians. When creationists debate evolutionists; to stump the evolutionist, the creationist often brings up the topic of the, 'origin of life,' saying things like, "DNA is far too complicated to simply happen by itself."

Now this statement sounds true. However, in Ray’s conference on Genesis and creation, He said something that tweaked my ears. He brought my attention to Genesis 1:11

  ‘And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.’

Ray made it quite clear, that at Gods command, the EARTH (and NOT God) made grass/green, along with the rest of plant life. This means that the EARTH made the very first piece of physical life that existed in the entire universe. Now, all plant life contains DNA and the earth seems to spew plant life out like crazy. Ray also said at his conference that, God created the earth; and the earth makes everything on it. Things like mountains, sand, canyons, gold, rivers etc. Is DNA, also one of these things that the earth makes?

Apparently, human DNA isn't much different to that of a banana! Did God make humans out of same DNA stuff that is already naturally produced in the earth? Could humanity be the end of a grand creation, all done through a natural process of physics and evolution already pre-planned/designed before the big bang? Did God sit back and watch His whole creation unfold before his eyes over a process of 14 billion years or did He get hands on, making stars, galaxies, planets, fish and dinosaurs at every turn for 14 billion years. Could we say that the universe ‘made itself’, after God pushed the big bang red button or not? Was the creation ‘truly’ finished at the very start/foundation (big bang)? Why do secular (and some Christian) scientists insist that evolution is the ONLY scientific answer? Are they right or wrong?

Can someone please correct me in all the areas where my thinking is wrong (if not the whole thing). I know that this post is long and I’m sorry. I'm a music producer and not a scientist. I’m also NOT an evolutionist, but Ray has just got me thinking about this. He can do that…

Peace Greg (London, UK)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 10:24:07 PM »

(KJV)  Gen 1:11  And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

(CLV)  Gen 1:11 And saying is the Elohim, "Verdant shall become the land with verdure; with herbage seeding seed for its from-kind and for its likeness. and with the fruit tree whose seed is in it yielding fruit for its from-kind on the land." And coming is it to be so.

No version I have says, "Let the earth make."  You know Ray pays attention to ALL the words.  Regardless of what you may remember, he did not intimate that the earth MADE "green", animals, Mankind.  

I don't know how many of your other questions flow out of this misunderstanding, so I won't attempt to answer them--especially since I don't have the answers in the first place.  Whew!   ;D  

Without getting into "evolution" (which most lay-people don't even understand), there is no doubt that God is using natural processes to continue 'life' on earth.  In other words, "...and coming is it to be so."  It wouldn't surprise me to discover that He has always used natural processes from 'the Beginning' to do His creative work.  

The 'problem' is, is that He doesn't tell us (except in the case of Mankind) HOW He did things "in the beginning" except to speak.  I go back to the truth that all the Words of Scripture are Spirit.  As much as we might not want them to be, they are.  Can Spirit 'speak' as if it had a mouth?

Then again:  Mat 21:21-22  Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.  And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Maybe He'd already had some experience along these lines?

My ultimate answer right now is what it's been for all my life:  I wasn't there.  The Fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God.'  I believe the fool still says in his heart 'There is no God that I can't fathom.'  

    
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Coates

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2010, 12:31:39 AM »

His thoughts are not our thoughts
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2010, 01:20:49 AM »

I have a quick question. According to Genesis, God made all the plant on the earth before the sun, moon, and stars... Wouldn't it make more sense to make the sun first? What's happening there? Thanks.

Hi Lupac.  Don't hijack this thread, please.  Read or watch the '08 Nashville conference again.  If you still believe what you've written here, write to Ray.  You may call it a 'quick question', but there is no quick answer.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Lupac

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2010, 01:31:53 AM »

Okay, sure. I'm not sure I watched the whole thing. No harm intended., just was curious.
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jeetkunejimi

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2010, 11:45:42 AM »

Hi Greg,
          plants can grow in sheer darkness, and in the depths of the sea, miles from direct sunlight, the earth brought forth its yield of abundant life by the power of God. Keep in mind that all we know and relate to is of and by God Almighty. God's force, energy, spirit, is in all things, whether He releases something immediately or over a period of ages, either way its all His doing.

It is clear to any sane free thinking person that evolution is flawed, and that fish just can't decide to become land animals via will or random happenings, oh, and a few hundred million years. Nothing happens at random if we have a true glimpse of God's sovereignty. If and when there is to be a restitution of all things then that may well mean the resurrection of every once living thing, since extinct, aions past. We simply don't know, some animals do appear to have 'souls'. Do plants have a collective consciousness? Who knows? Who cares? I like salads. All we know is that we are here and we have to make the most of it, and that tends to fill our time here until the Big Boss calls us up.

The universe didn't make itself, it has no 'self' it is inanimate, Jesus 'shaped' the universe under God's command and all its fabric is held together by him, everything consists because of him. God produced the matter and Jesus brought it into form. Man can make a chair but he can't make trees. God made matter from NOTHING, then Jesus did the shaping, and he is still shaping each and everyone of us until we resemble him. Perhaps all other things, even the angel are and end to the means of making man to be resident with God. God will have no doubt set times for things to happen and by his workings caused them to be so, including the formation of RNA, DNA, FBI & MI6, oh, and of course the Beatles.

All we have to believe is that everything is done by God for a perfect reason, of which the consummation has no yet occurred but it draws ever closer with each passing second. We are so to speak but seconds away from the goal of all creation, which is the body of creation in its entirety standing before God in jubilation that He is all our Father and Christ all our perfect elder brother, and that God is finally to be seen as the ALL-IN-ALL. Frankly the consequences of that not being so are so hopeless and loveless that they don't even bare thinking about. Lets hope we are right about God, otherwise its just Catchascatchcan:).

Peace,
Jimi,
UK Nottingham.









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Join me now in my new massive money making business venture, selling asbestos blankets only on Sundays at the exits of Orthodox churches. It's really gonna take off.

Ninny

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2010, 01:47:11 PM »

Jimi,
I like what you said!  :D
Here is something I have never done before, Greg, but here is something in line with Ray's teaching and you might enjoy reading it...hopefully the moderators will let it be...hope no one yells at me!!  :)

***No Teaching Links***

This is what "Hell No" has to say about it....
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 02:17:37 PM by mharrell08 »
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aqrinc

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2010, 03:47:17 PM »

Quote
From Jimi
God made matter from NOTHING, then Jesus did the shaping, and he is still shaping each and everyone of us until we resemble him.

If anyone has been doing their homework; Ray has taught on this subject quite a bit.

In Beginning, GOD ('ĕlôhîym) Created (bârâ') for Making (Asah).

See: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8516.0.html for further reference points.

If one want to do the work, it is all laid out both in visible Created things and by Scientific Evidence gathered, not the un-scientific interpretation of evidence. But the evidence points to exactly how, why, when and for what our Creator GOD and Savior Jesus Christ Are doing even in minute little details to bring us to the point of being Like THEM.

Obviously If Christ States That GOD THE FATHER ALWAYS WAS, and not any thing; was before GOD THE FATHER; then all things were created out of GOD; NOT out of nothing.


PostScript To Nashville 2008
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9130.msg76395.html#msg76395

Gen 1:24 (CLV)
And saying is the Elohim, "Bring forth shall the earth the living soul for its from-kind, beast and moving animal and land life for its from-kind. "And coming is it to be so.

GOD Created Out of HIMSELF, not from nothing; Scripture shows constantly that alll that is Came out oF GOD. The visible came from The Invisible (Imperceptible) not from nothing.



Joh 1:1-5 (CLV)
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being."
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not."


Rom 1:20 (MKJV)
For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Rom 11:34-36 (CLV)
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

2Co 4:16-18 (Rotherham)
16 Wherefore we faint not, but, even if, our outer man, is decaying, nevertheless, our inner man , is renewing day by day.

17 For, the momentary lightness of thee tribulation, in a manner yet more and more excelling, is working out for us, an age-abiding weight of glory,—
18 So long as we are not looking out for the visible things, but for the invisible; for, the visible things, are temporary, whereas, the invisible, are age-abiding.

Col 1:16 (GNB)
For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

george :).

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Ninny

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2010, 03:49:40 PM »

Sorry, guys...
Kathy :)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2010, 05:25:08 PM »

Quote
Was the creation ‘truly’ finished at the very start/foundation

God knows the beginning from the end. That is true. It doesn't mean that the end is manifested yet.

God is making man in His own Image. It doesn't mean that man is or ever has been in the Image of God yet.

The Lamb of God is not slain from the foundation of the world either.

Arc
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Roy Coates

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2010, 05:58:58 PM »

John,
Your right in that the KJV renders rev 13:8 that way but look at some others like the clnt and see what you think
Rev 13:8

(CLV) And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."

(Diaglott-NT)  And will worship him all those dwelling on the earth, of which not has been written the name in the scroll of the life of the lamb of that having been killed, from a casting down of a world.

(GNB)  All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed.

(KJV)  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Ray goes in depth on this subject but I am not sure where it is at, at the moment.
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aqrinc

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2010, 05:59:53 PM »

Here are three different translations that make it clearer, Ray has done a study on this already too.

Mobile Conference 2009
Audio 7

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10976.msg94788.html#msg94788

Rev 13:8 (ASV)  
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

Rev 13:8 (Darby)
and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb.

Rev 13:8 (ESV)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

george :).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 06:06:37 PM by aqr »
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Roy Coates

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2010, 08:50:40 PM »

well done george ;D
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musicman

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2010, 10:06:17 PM »

The following should answer some of your questions.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIvmXTlgi6I
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 04:07:51 AM »

 :) George and Roy, thanks for your input (from true study and worship of God) to this topic.

Musicman, I do not have the luxury to download youtube clips that are posted in the Forum.

John, here is an excerpt out of Ray’s conference last year. Thank you for your question.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Well now either that shows that in some way or shape or form, before the world was made, in God’s mind or whatever, Christ was already slain.  Before He was ever brought into existence, right?  Either that or maybe this is not translated properly.  Let’s take a look at that concept.

The World English Bible:
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth will worship Him, every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.

Huh, do you get that?  It was “written from the foundation of the world.”
 
Darby’s 1890 Translation:
Revelation 13:8 All that dwell in the earth shall do homage, everyone whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lambkin.

The Living Bible:
Revelation 13:8 they are the ones whose names were not written in the book of life before the world was made, the book that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered.

Do you think that none of these translators knew what they were doing? Do you think that all these are phoney translations, that have not a clue as to what they were doing?

American Standard Version:
 Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, everyone whose name had not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that had been slain.

Not that had been slain from the foundation of the world, “written… in the book” before the foundation of the world.

The New American Bible:
Version Revelation 13:8 And all the inhabitants of the earth will worship It, all whose names had not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life which belongs to the Lamb who was slain.

Emphatic Diaglott:
Revelation 13:8 And all who dwell on the earth shall worship Him, whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the scroll of the life of that Lamb who was killed.

How many more do you need until you begin to think, ‘there might be something wrong with that King James translation?’  …………….

The New Revised Standard Version:
Revelation 13:8 Everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the Lamb, that was slaughtered.

Moffat Translation:  
Revelation 13:8 All dwellers on earth will be worshippers; everyone whose name was  not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb.

Here Moffat says, the words of the lamb slain are probably a gloss, a marginal insertion from Revelation 21:27. The “book of life” elsewhere appears without any such addition.

English Standard Version:
Rev 13:8  and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

I quit there.  I’ll tell you why I quit there.  I somehow lost the site where it had hundreds of translations and that’s as far as I got.  I couldn’t find the site back, just lost it. But anyway, I got that from hundreds of translations.

So, how much credence do we give that?  “We know He was slain from the foundation of the world (but He wasn’t slain until 33AD) and what proves it?  Revelation 13:8.“  Ooops! Not quite.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 04:15:11 AM by Arcturus »
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Craig

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2010, 11:43:25 AM »

Quote
God is making man in His own Image. It doesn't mean that man is or ever has been in the Image of God yet.

Deb, I take exception to that statement ;)

Seriously though, I think Jesus fit that description, he is that man and is our example.

Craig
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:50:18 AM by Craig »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2010, 12:11:32 PM »

Man, Oh man, you are right Craig! :D Thank you. I stand corrected.

Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Deb :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 12:26:23 PM by Arcturus »
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aqrinc

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2010, 11:05:38 PM »

Roy, George, Arcturus,

Thanks for the information on Rev.13:8.  Big dumb me.  I was at the November bible conference and had forgot about Ray's teachings on this point.  The KJV of Rev. 13:8 can be misunderstood.

John

Hi John, Deb, Roy, Craig, Ninny,

Sorry Kathy :-[, i missed again. :-* ;D

Here is what i say my brothers and sister, let him who has never erred, jump up and celebrate, or load up the slings. Nice; no one is jumping up and celebrating or loading slings, we are all fallen by our physical nature. Great thing is; GOD Sees us as righteous, in Christ Jesus, and, If GOD Be For us, do we cares, who, is against us?

Rom 8:31-39 (CLV)
31 What then, shall we declare to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier?
34 Who is the Condemner? Christ Jesus, the One dying, yet rather being roused, Who is also at God's right hand, Who is pleading also for our sakes?
35 What shall be separating us from the love of God in Christ Jesus? Affliction, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
36 According as it is written that "On Thy account we are being put to death the whole day, We are reckoned as sheep for slaughter."

37 Nay! in all these we are more than conquering through Him Who loves us.

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor messengers, nor sovereignties, nor the present, nor what is impending, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus, our Lord."

george ;D.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:22:52 PM by aqr »
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Ninny

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 11:17:04 PM »

Yaaaay!! George!!!  :D ;D
Kathy ;)
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Marlene

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Re: Thoughts on Origins? Evolution? Big Bang?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 01:30:15 AM »

I second Kathy's Yay, George. :)

Marlene
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