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Author Topic: anger  (Read 8677 times)

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gallenwalsh

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anger
« on: February 18, 2010, 10:28:36 PM »

I read somewhere in one of Rays papers that it is the spirit of murder to be angry,perhaps I misunderstand, but I wonder if that is taken from an incorrect interpretation because Jesus surely got angry in the temple when he drove out the moneychangers and there is another scripture quote that says be angry and sin not. so how is being angry like murder ? I read in the old testament somewhere that god considered not paying workers there due wages was like unto murder, actually now that I think about it seems most sins are like murder to God, whether it's fornication , lying, etc. Did I just answer my own question ? 
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: anger
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 11:07:26 PM »

Eph 4:25-27  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another; be angry and do not sin; let not the sun go down upon your wrath, neither give place to the devil;

Sound like it's possible for Christ to have been angry and remain sinless?

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

mharrell08

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Re: anger
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 12:16:50 AM »

I read somewhere in one of Rays papers that it is the spirit of murder to be angry,perhaps I misunderstand, but I wonder if that is taken from an incorrect interpretation because Jesus surely got angry in the temple when he drove out the moneychangers and there is another scripture quote that says be angry and sin not. so how is being angry like murder ? I read in the old testament somewhere that god considered not paying workers there due wages was like unto murder, actually now that I think about it seems most sins are like murder to God, whether it's fornication , lying, etc. Did I just answer my own question ? 


Gallenwalsh,

Yes, I think you've misunderstood Ray's teaching...perhaps you can post a link or even a name of the paper you are referencing?

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him

The scriptures state that one who hates his brother, hatred in his heart, is a murderer...Jesus did not 'hate his brethren' from the heart.

Here's a good read regarding the words and actions ['being angry'] of Christ during His earthly ministry: http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Roy Coates

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Re: anger
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 01:03:54 AM »

I don't think Jesus hated the money changers he certainly hated the money changing. hate the action not the person. just my humble opinion
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: anger
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 04:44:15 AM »

Anger is not the sin. The motives of the heart is where the sin is to be found.

Rev 20 :12 …And the dead were judged (sentenced) by what they had done [their whole way of feeling, and acting, their AIMS, and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. 13. And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) surrendered the dead in them, and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to THEIR MOTIVES, aims, and works]. (Amplified version)

Knowing what motivates us is part of judging ourselves but not many know what their motives are. To such, they believe their actions speak for themselves but God sees the heart, the motives and the spiritual condition that dictates our way of feeling, acting, aims and endeavors. :)

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 04:46:04 AM by Arcturus »
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kenny

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Re: anger
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 11:02:56 AM »

I read somewhere in one of Rays papers that it is the spirit of murder to be angry,perhaps I misunderstand, but I wonder if that is taken from an incorrect interpretation because Jesus surely got angry in the temple when he drove out the moneychangers and there is another scripture quote that says be angry and sin not. so how is being angry like murder ? I read in the old testament somewhere that god considered not paying workers there due wages was like unto murder, actually now that I think about it seems most sins are like murder to God, whether it's fornication , lying, etc. Did I just answer my own question ? 
Ray says to read each word, every word!
Joh 2:15 And, making a whip out of ropes (this takes about 2 hours), He casts all out of the sanctuary, both the sheep and the oxen, and He pours out the change of the brokers and overturns the tables."(this was plannned)
Joh 2:16 And to those selling doves He said, "Take these away hence, and do not be making My Father's house a house for a merchant's store." (this not anger it is a statment)
Joh 2:17 Now His disciples are reminded that it is written: "The zeal of Thy house will be devouring Me."(this is Passion)


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sansmile

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Re: anger
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 03:28:46 PM »

Hi all,
I used to work with "angry" children, as a learning mentor in a school. Anger management comes from being able to control our BEHAVIOUR when angry. It is a natural process to feel anger, due to the release of adrenalin into the brain, the "fight or flight" enzyme. Something or someone brings u to anger, lights the "fuse" . It is possible to stop that fuse reaching the explosive, by using various techniques, the best for us as Christians is to pray.
Just my thoughts x
Sandie
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Rene

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Re: anger
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 04:21:31 PM »

Here is an except from Ray’s paper “The Sermon On the Mount is for You” which touches on several of the comments made in this thread.

René

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm
 
But doesn't Eph. 4:26 tell us to: "Be ye angry, and sin not; let not the sun go down upon your wrath."

Any number of translators tried to interpret this verse better than the King James, but most failed:

"IF angry, beware of sinning..." (Weymouth ).

"IF you get angry, you must stop sinning in your anger..." (Williams Trans.)

"Do not let resentment lead you into sin..." (Knox Trans.)

"IF you are angry, don't sin by nursing your grudge..." (Kenneth Taylor)

That last one is really funny. So if you just have a grudge against a brother, but you don't "nurse it," then you will be okay? Is that something like: "If you are going to keep looking at pornography, don't LUST." Or: "If you continue drinking way too much, don't GET DRUNK."

They try every means to justify BEING ANGRY, but not yet, not quite, actually "SINNING." And just where is that fine line between being angry with a brother, but not yet sinning? There IS NO FINE LINE.

The only translation that seems to make sense out of this verse is the following:

"ARE you indignant, and NOT SINNING?" (Concordant Literal New Testament). 

Now that translation makes sense and is Scriptural. It needs to be stated as a question.
 
"Indignation, anger, and wrath" are almost synonymous, and are often used interchangeably by many translations.
 
And so the question is, "Can one be angry, wrathful, or indignant toward a brother without actually sinning?" The answer is NO. Notice how this verse continues:

"Are you indignant, and not sinning? Do not let the sun be sinking on your vexation [wrath], NOR [ah, yes, let's not neglect this final part...] ...nor yet be giving place to the Adversary [devil]" (Eph. 4:26-27).

Jesus himself showed anger toward the hypocrites, but not toward His brothers. "...whosoever is angry with his BROTHER." Jesus got angry, "And when He [Jesus] had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts" (Mark 3:5). Remember that Jesus, "the LAMB of God" will return to this earth in WRATH (Rev. 6:16), but... ...BUT, "God has not appointed US [His Elect] to wrath" (I Thes. 5:9).
 
Jesus is NOT angry with His brothers. Neither can we be angry with our brothers. But just who are Jesus' brothers and our brothers? Answer:
"For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother" (Mark 3:35).

Being angry with a true brother or sister who is doing the will of God, is little different than being angry with God Himself. And if we do it, we will be in danger of the Judgment. Or as some render it, "the Judge or Judges." Jesus is our singular Judge, and we will be the multiple judges that "judge the world & angels" (I Cor. 6:2-3), by these very same principles.

**********



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Dave in Tenn

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Re: anger
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 08:48:06 PM »

Rene, thanks for that.  A very timely correction, not just in my understanding of Doctrine, but in the way I've lived my life lately. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

EKnight

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Re: anger
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 09:06:02 PM »

Quote
Jesus is NOT angry with His brothers. Neither can we be angry with our brothers. But just who are Jesus' brothers and our brothers? Answer:
"For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is My brother, and My sister, and mother" (Mark 3:35).

Isn't everyone doing the will of God? Phil 2:13  For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Or does that verse only refer to the positive things that people do?  I mean wasn't it God's will for the pharaoh's heart to be hardened since it was God who hardened his heart?

Exodus 9:12 (New International Version)

12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

Or is it okay to be angry with someone who is not a brother?

 ???  ???

Eileen
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mharrell08

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Re: anger
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 12:12:47 AM »

Isn't everyone doing the will of God?

No, but everyone is doing what God INTENDS:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire part 15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html):

DIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN GOD’S STATED WILL AND HIS PLAN OR INTENTIONS

Few students of the Scriptures have learned the truth regarding God’s stated WILL and His PLAN or INTENTIONS. They are clearly not one and the same. They operate completely differently for different purposes.

First we should understand that God’s will is used both as a noun and a verb. As a noun, God’s will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. It is usually not too hard to tell in Scripture whether the word "will" is used as a noun or a verb. In the Scripture we just used to show that things only happen "if God will," it is used as a verb. And whenever God uses His will as a verb, then it absolutely will be fulfilled and carried out at the time and place that He wills it.

If, however, God is speaking of His will as a noun, meaning His ultimate goal, then it does not immediately come about in totality at the place and time that He states it. A perfect example of God’s will as a noun and it not coming to total fruition at the place and time stated, is in what is popularly called "The Lord’s Prayer."

"Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6:9-10).

I don’t think too many would argue that God’s kingdom and His will has not totally come to this earth as it is in heaven. This is a goal—it will happen, just not at this time. And so man’s will is almost always at variance with God’s stated will as His ultimate goal for the human race. But God’s day-to-day willing of events to carrying out His plan is never ever contradicted or thwarted by puny man. Paul understood this principle perfectly.



WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!



Or is it okay to be angry with someone who is not a brother?

Eph 4:31  Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice

Col 3:8  ...now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth


The scriptures teach us to repent or turn away from anger...anger at or towards another, whether believer or unbeliever. Christ was not 'angry' at the Scribes and Pharisees but rather their spiritual condition:

Mark 3:5  ...when He [Jesus] had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts...

Also, the bible study on 'Love' is good for scriptural references on the 'love' or attitude we are to have with unbelievers...it is not the same as with believers but it is not a license to treat the unbelievers with contempt. FYI: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: anger
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 01:08:20 AM »


Hi Eileen,

Here is an email to go along with what Marques has posted.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2885.0.html --------

People go against God's will ALL DAY LONG. That's what most

    peoples' lives consist of--going against God's will.  It is God's purpose, plan, and

    intentions that absolutely no one has ever or ever will go against.  Listen:  It is

    God's purpose and plan that people GO AGAINST HIS WILL. He purposes for

    people to go against His will. It is God's will that we all become PERFECT as He

    is perfect, but it is in His sovereign plan that we all live very imperfect lives before

    God begins to change us into perfecion.

    God be with you,

    Ray



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octoberose

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Re: anger
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2010, 10:48:01 PM »

Have you ever speculated why, though. Why did God bring about an imperfect human race in order to create His family in the end? It can't all be about appreciating and valuing His Kingdom, can it? Is it silly to ask? I don't think He minds the question if it brings about illumination of His character. I think He minds the question if I'm the creature questioning my Creator as if I have any say in the matter.
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aqrinc

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Re: anger
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 12:37:04 AM »

Have you ever speculated why, though. Why did God bring about an imperfect human race in order to create His family in the end? It can't all be about appreciating and valuing His Kingdom, can it? Is it silly to ask? I don't think He minds the question if it brings about illumination of His character. I think He minds the question if I'm the creature questioning my Creator as if I have any say in the matter.

Because creating beings Like HIMSELF, is not a stamping out process. Maybe when we read Scripture, we are learning how and why GOD Makes gods; and it is not a simple process, but takes a lifetime.

Gen 3:22-24 (CLV)
22 And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Behold! The human becomes as one of us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he stretch forth his hand, moreover, and take of the tree of the living, and eat and live for the eon--!(aka forever)

23 And Yahweh Elohim is sending him away from the garden of Eden to serve the ground whence he is taken.

24 And He is driving out the human, and is causing him to tabernacle at the east of the garden of Eden. And He set the cherubim, and a flaming sword turning itself, to keep the way of the tree of the living.

Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Psa 82:1-8 (Rotherham)
1 A Melody of Asaph. God, hath taken his place in the august assembly, In the midst of the gods, will he judge.
2 How long will ye judge perversely, And, the countenances of the lawless, uplift? Selah.

3 Vindicate the weak and the fatherless, The oppressed and the poor, see righted;
4 Deliver the weak sad the needy, Out of the hand of the lawless, make rescue.

5 They know not, neither can they perceive, In darkness, they wander, All the foundations of the earth do shake.

6 I, said, Gods, ye are, Yea, sons of the Highest, are ye all;
7 But indeed, like the earth-born, shall ye die! And, like one of the princes, shall ye fall!

8 Arise! O God, judge thou the earth, For, thou, wilt inherit all the nations.

Joh 10:33-36 (MKJV)
33  The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone you for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because you, being a man, make yourself God.
34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, "I said, You are gods?"

35  If He called those gods with whom the Word of God was, and the Scripture cannot be broken,
36  do you say of Him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I am the Son of God?


Gal 5:14 (MKJV)
For all the Law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Rom 8:38-39 (MKJV)
38  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Gal 5:22-23 (MKJV)
22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


Fruit does not start out ready to eat day one, it must be grown tended treated and then harvested, get the picture a bit now ???.

george ;D.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2010, 12:38:34 AM by aqr »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: anger
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 08:54:02 AM »

Hi octoberose

We learn by CONTRAST. We experience evil to be made humble.

Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


Patience is ONE of the fruits of the Spirit of God.

Luk 7:47  Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Would you think that the measure of love is the barometer of the measure of forgiveness? Our worldly opposites and contrasts are not those of the Kingdom of God that are discerned by the Spirit of God.
 
Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: anger
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 10:29:19 AM »

Have you ever speculated why, though. Why did God bring about an imperfect human race in order to create His family in the end? It can't all be about appreciating and valuing His Kingdom, can it? Is it silly to ask? I don't think He minds the question if it brings about illumination of His character. I think He minds the question if I'm the creature questioning my Creator as if I have any say in the matter.


Here is a good read regarding the way we understand things by how they are relative to something else. Remember, the tree of knowledge in Genesis 3 is a symbol of how all knowledge is a knowledge of good AND evil.

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 6 (http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html):

EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE

Everything in the universe is a contrast with or to something else in the universe. Nothing can be known about anything without contrasting it with other things. You cannot think a thought nor can you perform a deed without a working knowledge of these contrasting factors. If I should say that a box is big, you could not have any conception of what I am saying unless you also know what it is for something to be small. Something is only smooth in contrast to it being rough. Up is only up in relation to down. Without the contrasting relationship between two opposites "up" could just as easily be "down." And all big boxes might be perceived as small were it not for the fact that there would be no concept of small without a knowledge of big.

Therefore, in the physical universe, all things are what they are by contrast and relativity. Very hot stars are only very hot relative to cooler stars. If there were no knowledge of cooler stars, there could also be no hot stars. Things are either hard or soft, or harder or softer (but harder or softer than WHAT?—always, something else). Things are light or dark (or somewhere in between, (but the in between can also only be known by gradations of relativity as well). Things are heavy or light, sharp or dull, big or small, tall or short, strong or weak, hot or cold, left or right, north or south, in or out, new or old, beginning or end, fast or slow, fat or skinny, straight or crooked, up or down, high or low, moving or still, positive or negative, visible or invisible, etc. You get the idea. Now then, this same law of knowledge pertains to inanimate things and things of a spiritual nature as well. Again it is only by understanding one thing relative to another or one thing contrasted with another that enables us to intelligently communicate and live our lives. Let’s look at a few of these: happy or sad, giving or stingy, build or destroy, kind or cruel, energetic or lazy, haughty or humble, intelligent or stupid, wise or foolish, right or wrong, true or false, good or evil, righteous or wicked, love or hate, life or death, temporary or eternal.

Having a working knowledge of these relative and contrasting terms and concepts is absolutely essential in living our lives. We must all come to know and to experience both good and evil. The universal teaching that God "never intended" for man to eat of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is as false and unscriptural as anything could ever be. It was both essential and paramount that man should eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of both good and evil is an attribute of God Himself. If we are to be the "sons of God," we too must partake of this quality of God’s nature. How could man ever be fully made into the very image of His Creator God if he did not possess even the basic fundamental attributes of his Creator and Father?

Let me make one thing clear at this point, lest my detractors think they have discovered a major flaw in my teaching. "Evil" is not good nor is it eternal. Nonetheless, a "knowledge of evil" is good and is eternal. All evil will take its place in the lake of fire, but a knowledge of evil is eternal just as sure our God, Who possesses a knowledge of evil, is eternal.

And so man’s life consists of a combination of both good and evil thoughts, words, and deeds. The most saintly of men have had their flaws and the most evil of men have possessed at least a few qualities of good. I am sure that even Adolph Hitler loved his mother and was kind to his dog. But loving your mother and being kind to your dog will not get you into the kingdom of God. And let me be quick to add that hating your mother and being cruel to your dog will not eternally keep you out of the kingdom of God either.

Oh that the church could have the faith to believe that God Almighty is able to accomplish His will for humanity:

"For this is GOOD [not evil] and acceptable [but NOTHING SHORT OF THIS IS ACCEPTABLE] in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge [both the good knowledge and the evil knowledge] of THE TRUTH" (I Tim. 2:3-4).

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation [so here is another statement that is ‘worthy’ and ‘acceptable’ in the sight of God]. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN [and nothing short of ‘all men’ IS worthy or acceptable to God], specially [specially does not mean ‘exclusively’] of those that believe" (I Tim. 4:10).



Hope this helps,

Marques
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octoberose

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Re: anger
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 01:43:17 AM »

The wisdom in this little group never fails to astound me. Thank you for giving consideration to my questions and thoughts.
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