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[Lupac]

Hello. I thought I could get some help. I decided to look up every time the word "torment" and "punishment" was used in the NT. It's found in 29 verses, and comes from seven (Maybe more? I didn't go through all the "punish" verses, just the "torment" ones.) words:

G928
basanizō
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

G929
basanismos
From G928; torture: - torment.

G930
basanistēs
From G928; a torturer: - tormentor.

G931
basanos
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

G2558
kakoucheō
From a presumed compound of G2556 and G2192; to maltreat: - which suffer adversity, torment.

G2849
kolazō
From κόλος kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

G2851
kolasis
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

G3600
odunaō
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

But the one I want to focus on right now is kolasis. It's only used twice in the Scriptures, in the verse that is the most "hell proof" for most christians. It's root word is used twice also. Here's the verse I'm sure you all know:

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment*: but the righteous into life eternal.

Here's the other time it's used:

1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment*. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I'll put the two verses it's root word is used in also:

Act 4:21  So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish* them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

2Pe 2:9  The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished*:

Now, here's my question. All these verses seem to have chastisement as being a correct translation. The wicked going into eonion chastisement. The Pharisees wanting to punish (chastise, maybe? In their mind.) the Apostles. And the unjust men being chastised by God. But, 1 John 4:18 doesn't seem to fit. Fear hath "chastisement"? YLT has it as "fear hath punishment". Any help? Thanks.

[Samson]

Hi Lupac,

             Why does the Greek Word, "Kolasin" being used at 1John. 4:18 " have to Fit" or is of concern to you. I noticed that myself, but since Kolasin shouldn't be translated punishment, anyway, it doesn't concern me. Kolasin literally means " to prune" and is rendered Chastisement or Correction. The Greek Word for punishment is "Timoria" and emphasizes the vindictive character of punishment with a satisfaction only for the benefit of the inflicter of that punishment. (Strongs #5098). However, Here are a few renderings of 1John. 4:18 from other translations.

" Fear existeth not in Love, but perfect love casteth fear outside; because fear hath correction: He that feareth hath not been made perfect in love." (Rotherhams)

" There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment, but he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (NKJV)

" There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love." (NWT)


Lupac, I'm sure someone else can add to the above, but I don't view any problem or see any concern. Apparently, the Greek Word "Kolasin" is being used for a different purpose at 1John. 4:18.

                   Hope this helps, Samson.

[Kat]

Hi Lupac,

It seems to me that the previous verse explains what verse 18 is talking about.

1John 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness (confidence) in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.
v. 18  There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment (punishment). He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So we can see from verse 17 that this is talking about "the day of judgment." Those that have their "love made perfect," by God, have no fear of the judgment/punishment/torment/chastisement to come on the rest of the world.

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Lupac]

Thank you Kat. It doesn't "have to fit", I was just curious.

[Roy Martin]

Hi Lupac,
 I can give you one word to study that fits anywhere, everywhere all the time.
The word is love;

Peace
Roy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Lupac

I was just curious.

It is well that you are attempting to pay attention to the words.

1Jn 4:18  Love has in it no element of fear; but perfect love drives away fear, because FEAR INVOLVES PAIN,  and if a man gives way to fear, there is something imperfect in his love.(YNT)
1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because FEAR HAS TORMENT. He who fears has not been perfected in love. (MKJV)
1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.(KJV)

The point of these various translations is to show you that the nature of fear is torment that involves pain.

Fear  is dread, terror, horror, panic, alarm, fright, trepidation and foreboding.

Punishment is sentence, penalty, chastisement, reprimand or retribution.  

God will properly curtail, correct or chastise those who require conversion. To the less wicked Gods correction will feel less like punishment than to those most wicked who’s chastisement and reprimand will feel like wrathful revenge.

Isa 28:27  For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
Isa 28:28  Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
Isa 28:29  This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.

Arc

[daywalker]

1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment*. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Now, here's my question. All these verses seem to have chastisement as being a correct translation. The wicked going into eonion chastisement. The Pharisees wanting to punish (chastise, maybe? In their mind.) the Apostles. And the unjust men being chastised by God. But, 1 John 4:18 doesn't seem to fit. Fear hath "chastisement"? YLT has it as "fear hath punishment". Any help? Thanks.

Hello Lupac,

I don't understand how you can say it doesn't fit? It seems to fit just fine to me...

As a child when you do something wrong do you not fear being 'chastised' by your parents? Sure you could call it 'punishment', but chastisement is more specific, because your parents are rebuking you for your transgressions with the purpose of teaching you the right way. ...But that's what you fear when you sin--being 'chastised' for it. For even though the chastisement/rebuking/punishment is for a good cause--correcting your sins--the actual chastisement/rebuking/punishment can be quite painful.

Furthermore, those of us who have the desire to overcome our sins, and learn to act on love always, will 'chastise' ourselves whenever we fail. "For if we judge ourselves..."


"...perfect love casts out fear..." but when we fall short of 'perfect love' then fear kicks in because we know a judgment awaits.

Daywalker 

[Lupac]

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.

[Marlene]

Lupac, I had fear and I know my love was not made perfect. I had been looking at all the things  I am, instead of all the things God sees . He sees me made in his image. We can get so caught up in fear. Fear is a sin. To me God, showed me I did not really believe and trust him.  One, before coming here I did not know him. I thought he would torture me to death for everything I have done. I would say I believe and go and take things back that I said, I would give to him. We can trust God he would never torture us.

I no longer fear him and now I look only to him. I know, what is in my Beast, but now I know he is changing it day by day. He loves you more then any human being ever can. When, we trust him and lean not on our own understanding the fear will go.

We condemn ourself by not looking at how he sees us.  He showed me that to have fear was not of him. If, we love him we obey him. Israel saw all kinds of miracles, but could not see his love. Until we really understand that he had the victory over everything and everything being all the lies we have believed  and our sins. While, I was feeling this torment and I was at the end no where to turn except to him. It took me a long time before I saw it for what it is. Fear is being afraid to come to him. Which comes from the false things we have believed about him. Which is also a Spirit of not believing in his Grace and love of all humanity. He will show us where we need to be corrected. But, that is done with only in mind of correcting and changing us to believe on him. God will help you battle this. Fear is our enemy. We need to have reverance for him, but that does not happen till we really believe he is who he says that he is. I was listening to the accuser the devil who was always making me look at all my sins by trying to use the old law  against me.

God had the victory over death and hell.  I am so glad God brought you here. Only, God can give you understanding. Understanding, what God is doing makes us trust him and we will see all these lies of unbelief vanish.

I can feel your pain, because I have been thorugh it.  You are in good hands with God.  He is doing a work in you now. If, you noticed on another post I mentioned that I was going to and fro. Back and forth. That is what the devil does to try and defeat you. Greater is he who is in you, then who is in the world. We become what we focus on. If, it is fear we live a life of fear. If, we focus on all the things God is we will become like him and then the change
will take place because he will give us his Spirit. We will see he is destroying all the things that is not like he is. Fear being one of them. He replaces it with His Love that gives us peace.

I hope this helps. Only, God can take the fear away.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Deborah-Leigh]

Dear Marlene

This Scripture came to mind after I read your lovely post to bring encouragement and hope to  Lupac.

Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Arc

[Lupac]

Here's one I never noticed before, 2 Thess. 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting (eonion) destruction* from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

*G3639
olethros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

I know the punishment is only for the ages, but I never knew Paul wrote anything like that. The word olethros only shows up four times in the bible. In 1 Cor. 5:5, it talks about flesh being destroyed by Satan, so that the soul may be saved. The 2 Thess. passage seems to contradict the passage in 1 Cor. 15, saying that through Christ, all would be made alive. Any help? Thanks.

[mharrell08]

Here's one I never noticed before, 2 Thess. 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting (eonion) destruction* from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

*G3639
olethros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

I know the punishment is only for the ages, but I never knew Paul wrote anything like that. The word olethros only shows up four times in the bible. In 1 Cor. 5:5, it talks about flesh being destroyed by Satan, so that the soul may be saved. The 2 Thess. passage seems to contradict the passage in 1 Cor. 15, saying that through Christ, all would be made alive. Any help? Thanks.

No, they do not contradict. The wicked & unbelieving are punished/chastised as PART of their spiritual conversion, not contrary.

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html):

Destruction is not the final destiny of the nonbeliever. Being DESTROYED, PERISHED, and LOST are all conditions awaiting SALVATION, and are not conditions to be eternally punished! All, absolutely ALL, who are not in the first resurrection are in a condition likened to: "lost," "perished," or "destroyed." Contrary to orthodoxy these conditions are NOT hopeless:

DESTROYED, PERISHED, AND LOST

DESTROYED: Is being destroyed a condition from which there is no salvation? Jesus said,

    "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell [the Greek is "gehenna" NOT hell. It is ‘gehenna fire,’ Mat. 5:22, not ‘hell fire’]" (Matt. 10:28).

Is there no salvation from this "destruction" in gehenna fire? Notice that they are not "eternally lost" in gehenna fire, but they are "DESTROYED" in gehenna fire. Their condition is that of being DESTROYED. This is not a hopeless condition or even our own Lord would have been put into a hopeless condition.

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, DESTROY this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... but He spake of the temple of His BODY" (John 2:19 & 21).

Later they did destroy Jesus Christ and sure enough three days later God SAVED Jesus from that destruction.

Notice what Job said with relation to being "destroyed":

    "Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet Thou dost DESTROY me" (Job 10:8 ).

Yet Job knew that God would yet save him. In Jeremiah 18 God tells Jeremiah to go down to the Potter’s house and observe him at work. Jeremiah sees the potter destroy a marred work in his hand and refashion it into something useful. This we learn is an analogy of how God would "destroy" Judah (Ver. 7), and yet save him in the end. God will refashion all of marred (destroyed) mankind into glorious sons of God!

PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,

    "All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).

One more,

    "The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).

Perishing is not something that can cut off God’s arm of salvation.

LOST: Can a person sin, be lost, die, and then be saved? Certainly. Let’s look at one of those parables of Jesus that Christendom thinks of as easy to understand little stories, when in fact they don’t even begin to understand. You all know the story contained in the parable of the Prodigal son so I won’t read it all, but let me give you the "truth" of this parable.

God is the "Father" in this parable, and the Prodigal is EVERY SON WHO HAS GONE ASTRAY.

    "And when he had spent all ... And when he came to himself ... I will arise and go to my father ... I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight ... And am no more worthy to be called thy son ... But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring hither the fatted calf ... For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was LOST, and is found. And they began to be merry" (Luke 15:14-23).

This man SINNED, he was LOST, and he SPIRITUALLY DIED! Do we ALL spiritually DIE? "AND AS IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE..." But isn’t this speaking of the PHYSICAL death of our bodies? No it is not. The second part of the verse gives us the answer as to which death this is,

    "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but AFTER this the JUDGMENT" (Heb. 9:27).

Notice that "judgment" comes after this death, and not before. We already learned that JUDGMENT is upon the house of God NOW! Each individual Christian in every generation is judged NOW, in THIS life, BEFORE he physically dies! And so the "death" that all men must partake of before judgment is SPIRITUAL DEATH. Notice:

    "And I saw THE DEAD, small and great, STAND before God" (Rev. 20:12).

How pray tell can the physically dead, stand, if they are dead?

So here then is the order of things. The Prodigal Son SINNED, he was LOST, he spiritually DIED, and then? And then he was JUDGED! Where and when was he judged? In the hog pens of a far alien country, that’s where. God had to bring him out of this alien county (Mystery Babylon the Great) with all its "riotous living" (Luke 15:13). And so it was that God JUDGED this Prodigal with the beasts and swine of Babylon until he "came to himself." (Ver. 17). Seems to me that God sent King Nebuchadnezzer into the fields with the beasts to live like a beast, so that he too "came to himself." God has not warned in vain to

    "Come out of her [MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH] my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 17:5 & 18:4).

He that has an ear, let him hear.

And so this Prodigal SINNED, was LOST, and spiritually DIED. Surely he is outside of the realm of salvation now. No, he is in the perfect realm FOR SALVATION. How many millions of times this parable of the Prodigal Son has been read, but how many times has its truth ever been understood and perceived? This prodigal was, according to his father, "DEAD." And it was after his father said that he was "dead" that he welcomed him back, forgave him, exalted him, and rewarded him! Now who says one can’t be saved after death. It is after death that most of humanity will be saved.

May God finally grant you to SEE SOMETHING SPIRITUAL! Parables are NOT literal, that’s why they are called "parables" instead of "history." This parable pictures the carnal mind going the way of the flesh. What are the wages of living a riotous life in the alien land of lustful Babylon? Is it "life and joy in the holy spirit?" I speak as fool. Here is the wages of riotous and carnal living in the hog pens of Babylon: "For the wages of sin is DEATH..." (Rom. 6:23). SPIRITUAL DEATH! What must happen AFTER we spiritually DIE? "JUDGMENT!" The spiritual DEAD must be JUDGED. Does judging CORRECT the spiritually dead sinners? Yes it does. That is what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about. God’s "ways and means" ALWAYS WORK!

    "...For when Thy [God’s] JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!


Understand this Lupac, destruction is used in reference to one's spiritual condition THROUGHOUT the scriptures. Why? Because the wages of sin is DEATH [Rom 6:23] and to be carnally minded is DEATH [Rom 8:6]. Everyone must be destroyed (spiritually) in order to be SAVED, EVERYONE no exceptions.


Marques

[Lupac]

Thanks, I guess what got me is the "shall be destroyed". If they're already in a state of destruction, how can they be further destroyed? That word I quoted can also be translated as punishment though.

[DougE6]

G931
basanos
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

OK that I think is really helpful...
I think this word in the list you provided may provide some more perspective...a touch stone....a touch stone was

touch·stone (tchstn)
n.
1. A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these metals with that of a standard alloy.
2. An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or genuineness of others:

Main Entry: touch·stone
Pronunciation: \ˈtəch-ˌstōn\
Function: noun
Date: 1530
1 : a black siliceous stone related to flint and formerly used to test the purity of gold and silver by the streak left on the stone when rubbed by the metal
2 : a test or criterion for determining the quality or genuineness of a thing

I think that helps illuminate the entire point.  The "torment" is like a touchstone.  The torment has the same purpose as a touchstone. It is used to test the genuiness, or the quality of the works and so then separate the bad works from the good.  The torment is to test, to reveal, to see if there is any gold or silver or is it all just imitation or junk?

I think it will be painful to be tried by being struck against a touchstone.  That is why they call it "torment" Yet, Then what is impure can be burned away.

1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So the torment is to be a touchstone to see what foundation you built on, or what character are you and your works.

Doug

[Deborah-Leigh]

 Now That's paying attention to the words!

 As clear as day!

Arc

[aqrinc]

Hi Doug,

That was a very good piece of study, and quite correct, thanks.

george .

[Lupac]

Thanks, I guess what got me is the "shall be destroyed". If they're already in a state of destruction, how can they be further destroyed? That word I quoted can also be translated as punishment though.

Sorry to bring this back up, but I would like my question answered, if possible. Why, if someone is spiritually destroyed, does Paul say they "shall be punished with eonion destruction"? What does the Greek word "G3639 olethros" really mean? I just need help with that verse. Thanks.

For some reason, 2 Thess. 1:9 really bothers me, as it seems to not say, well, it's doesn't seem to agree with the rest of the Scriptures.

[Lupac]

Also, I've read that some people think 2 Thess. 1:9 was referring to the Jews that were persecuting the the Church Paul was writing to. It doesn't seem to, by the context, especially verse 10. What do you think?

[Kat]

Hi Lupac,

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting (eonian) punishment 2851: but the righteous into life eternal.

G2851
kolasis
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting (eonian) destruction 3639 from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;

G3639
olethros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

I know the punishment is only for the ages, but I never knew Paul wrote anything like that. The word olethros only shows up four times in the bible. In 1 Cor. 5:5, it talks about flesh being destroyed by Satan, so that the soul may be saved. The 2 Thess. passage seems to contradict the passage in 1 Cor. 15, saying that through Christ, all would be made alive.

Everyone that ever lives in this life will die and are spiritually lose, perished or destroyed in their sin, because they all lived subject to the carnal flesh. But this is not the destruction that leads to salvation, that only come from judgment.

Mat 7:13  "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

1Ti 6:9  But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Those two verses are different Greek words, but are referring to the same thing. They are lost and destroyed in their sins and await judgment in the resurrection to condemnation.

Now the few chosen who have the LIFE of the Holy Spirit indwelling, they are being judged now. Their sins are forgiven, they are overcoming and dying to the flesh - "our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" (Rom 6:6). They will be in the first resurrection to LIFE.

1John 2:12  I write to you, little children,
          Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.

But those that die lose, perished or destroyed in their sin will not remain that way forever.

Mat 18:11  For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

I hope that is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Lupac]

Thank you, I think I understand better, but here's what I'm having trouble with:

2 Thess. 1:9-10

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

That's what I'm having trouble with. It's definitely speaking of a future punishment, and not 70AD, as Jesus did not return with His saints then. The best I can gather is that Paul here is talking of when Christ first returns. At the start of the "1000-year reign", but before the LoF. Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Because Paul says in verse 11 that he prays that God would count them worthy of that calling. What do you think?

EDIT: New problem. The word for "punished" in verse 9 is G1349, dike. It's definition is:

Probably from G1166; right (as self evident), that is, justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution): - judgment, punish, vengeance.

So, is Paul saying here that God's judgments are to destroy evil men? I don't think so... It's only used four times, and it doesn't seem to be at all in the same way Jesus and John talked of God's judgments. But what does it mean?