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Author Topic: Daniel and Revelation  (Read 2622 times)

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EKnight

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Daniel and Revelation
« on: February 28, 2010, 05:47:43 PM »

These two passages seem to have a similar message.  I just don't know what the message is.

Daniel 12: 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 22: 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And from the same chapters:

Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Revelation 22: 10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

Are these books talking about the same things and if so, what?

Eileen
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moshe

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 05:49:23 PM »


Hi Eileen,
I wonder if in the first two passages the message is to stop trying to convert people, and thinking that the institutionalised church (and him whom is filthy) will understand (now).

I wish I could be of more help..

Moises
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margo

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 06:33:30 PM »

Hi Eileen,
Thank you for asking this question, because I also would like to know what this is talking about.  Rev.22:15 "For without are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever lover and maketh a lie". It seams that this is after everything is made new and after the great white throne judgement. Rev.22:11-15, I would like to know what is going on here. Thank you.

Blessings,
Margo
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mharrell08

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 07:17:29 PM »

These two passages seem to have a similar message.  I just don't know what the message is.

Daniel 12: 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 22: 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And from the same chapters:

Daniel 12: 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

Revelation 22: 10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

Are these books talking about the same things and if so, what?

Eileen


They both are prophecies concerning the Day of the Lord. Jesus confirms this in Matt 24 when the disciples ask of Him the end of this age:

Matt 24:3  ...the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

and Christ makes reference to the prophecy spoken by Daniel:

Matt 24:14-15  "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)...

Mark 13:14  ...But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand)...

Dan 12:11  From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.


This 'abomination' is the 'man of sin/son of perdition/beast within'. Here is an excerpt from LOF #14 'The Beast Within' (http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html):

AFTER WE FALL AWAY

And what does Paul tell us will be revealed AFTER we fall away?

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION" (II Thes. 2:3).

The beast, the man of sin, and the son of perdition are all one and the same:


"BEASTS": We have seen from God’s word that God calls mankind "beasts"—Psalm 49:12 & 20; Titus 1:12-13; II Pet. 2:12; Psalm 73:22; Jude 10; & Ecc. 3:18). There is not just one prophetic beast OUT THERE, somewhere. We are ALL beasts—within!

"MAN OF SIN": This phrase can be translated: "lawless one" or "man of lawlessness," as numerous translations do. But it can also be sin. Are we to believe that there is only ONE "man of sin?" or only ONE "man of lawlessness?"

    "For ALL [all mankind] have sinned, and come [Greek: ‘fall’] short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23).

    "MANY [not few] will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord... And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity [margin: ‘lawlessness’]" (Matt. 7:22a & 23).

    "But the scripture has concluded ALL UNDER SIN…" (Gal. 3:22).

"Man of sin" is by no means the sole description of some one man that appears at the end of the age before the return of Christ.

"SON OF PERDITION": This phrase should really be "son of destruction." Again, my King James has "son of destruction" in its margin. Is this speaking of just ONE person at the end of the age who will be called "son of perdition?" Hardly. Jesus called Judas "the son of perdition [destruction]" in John 17:12. So maybe there are only two people who are ever given this designation? ‘Fraid not. Notice what Peter says:

    "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of UNGODLY men" (II Pet. 3:7).

So are only the "ungodly" men at the end of the age "…reserved unto fire against [until] the day of JUDGMENT and perdition [destruction]…?" Notice what else Peter tells us in his epistle:

    "…it is the era [now] for the judgment to begin from the HOUSE OF GOD" (I Peter. 4:17).

But are we, who are members of the "house of God" considered "ungodly" people? Either we are "ungodly" sometime in our lives, or Jesus Christ didn’t come to justify us or to die for our sins:

    "But to him that works not, but believes on Him that justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness" and "For when WE [believing Christians] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for THE UNGODLY [that’s us, that’s everyone, that’s ALL believers who will have their works tried in the fire, I Cor. 3:15]" (Rom. 4:5 and 5:6).

A word study will clearly show anyone that Jesus came to SAVE those who are and will be destroyed. And do I have a Scripture on that? I am glad that you asked. Here is a beautiful lesson that will show us just how important it sometimes is to know from what original word a word in our English translations came.

Here is the temporary fate of most humanity:

    "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Did Jesus come to SAVE all those who enter the broad gate to "destruction?" YES HE DID:

    "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST" (Matt. 18:11)!

There it is!

There is what? Where does that verse say that Jesus came to "SAVE that which was DESTROYED?" Why right in the verse, of course. You see, the New Testament was written in GREEK, and in Greek, here is what Matt. 18:11 says: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was apollumi." And just what does apollumi mean in English? Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: "#622 {92x} apollumi to destroy, to perish, or lose" (page 37). Ninety-two times in the New Testament we read of "destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost, and they are all translated from the same one word, apollumi! So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL!

Old Testament too:

    "O Israel, you have DESTROYED yourself; but in Me is your help… I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death…" (Hosea 13:7 & 14)!

    "The righteous PERISH, and no man lays it to heart…" (Isa. 57:1)

And concerning lost Israel God says,

    "I will seek that which was LOST, and bring again that which was driven away…" (Ezek. 34:16).

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound

That saved a wretch like me!

I once was lost [apollumi—lost, perished, destroyed], but now am found;

Was blind, but now I see.

Oh the whole church world will sing about it, but they don’t completely believe the words they sing. They will appropriate the word "sinner" and "lost," but few will confess to being "the man of sin" or "the son of perdition [destruction]."

So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.

We all fit this description of "the man of sin, the son of perdition" of which Paul speaks. And when Paul tells us where this man of sin and son of perdition" resides, he removes all doubt of whom he is speaking.


You can keep reading to finish the point Ray is making here...I didn't want to post the entire installment.

Hope this helps,

Marques
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EKnight

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 10:21:01 PM »

Quote
Hi Eileen,
Thank you for asking this question, because I also would like to know what this is talking about.  Rev.22:15 "For without are dogs and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever lover and maketh a lie". It seams that this is after everything is made new and after the great white throne judgement. Rev.22:11-15, I would like to know what is going on here. Thank you.

Blessings,
Margo

Margo,

I read rev. chapters 20, 21 and 22.  It looks to me like the verses you are referring to are after the great white throne but it is not an event that happens here but rather another warning or admonition to us sort of a summation.

Hopefully someone more astute in the Word can either confirm or refute my brief observation.

Eileen
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Kat

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 11:23:02 PM »


Hi Margo,

Rev 22:14  Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Starting with verse 14 we can see this is speaking of the Elect. It tells us what this city is back in chapter 21 verse 2 "the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."  Go down to 21:27 and we see who are in the city "only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life," the Elect.

So this is the time of the "new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1) and this city "New Jerusalem" is explained back in Rev. 3.

Rev 3:11  Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
v. 12  He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

"New Jerusalem" is the kingdom of God, this is those who will rule with Christ in this "new heaven and a new earth."  Now the verse you were asking about.

Rev 22:15  But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

This verse is speaking about all those from the resurrected of the dead and have not yet been cleansed and purged.  These are those that were cast into the lake of fire on the "new earth," and of course are "outside" the kingdom/new Jerusalem. Here is a passage that kind of summarizes this "new earth."

Rev 21:22  And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
v. 23  And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
v. 24  By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it,
v. 25  and its gates shall never be shut by day--and there shall be no night there;
v. 26  they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
v. 27  But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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margo

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2010, 06:23:07 PM »

Thank you for the help in understanding these scriptures.  I understand the Kingdom of God and who will serve and be in it, but I don't understand is if Rev.22:15 is at the time of the new heaven and the new earth and after the great white throne judgement (I thought the great white throne judgement takes care of all the ones not in the Kingdom , 2ND resurrection.  My question is why is there still dogs, sorcerers etc. in the new heaven and earth. 

Blessings,
Margo
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mharrell08

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2010, 06:54:09 PM »

Thank you for the help in understanding these scriptures.  I understand the Kingdom of God and who will serve and be in it, but I don't understand is if Rev.22:15 is at the time of the new heaven and the new earth and after the great white throne judgement (I thought the great white throne judgement takes care of all the ones not in the Kingdom , 2ND resurrection.  My question is why is there still dogs, sorcerers etc. in the new heaven and earth. 

Blessings,
Margo


The complete spiritual conversion and salvation is not complete in these passages. You'll notice further along:

Rev 22:14-17  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Not everyone will have taken of the tree of life yet, hence the invitation from Christ and His Elect. The signs & symbols throughout the book of Revelation are not in chronological order.

Rev 7:9-10  After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes [signifying righteousness], and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

This is early in the book of Revelation, but notice this about the multitude later on:

Rev 20:12-15  I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here in Chapter 20, not all 'nations, kindreds, people, and tongues' have been converted, unlike what is pictured in Chapter 7.

Much of Revelation, or as properly translated 'The Unveiling', is the Unveiling of Jesus in US, in the lives of the believers throughout the generations (is/was/will be). There are, of course, symbols that signify the wicked & unbelieving in the Day of the Lord receiving Judgment but they are not shown in any chronological order.

Simply put, if all enemies [Eph 6:12, 2 Cor 10:5] are not put under Christ's footstool [1 Cor 15:25, Heb 1:13], then it is not the 'end' of the Great White Throne Judgment, which is during the Day of the Lord. Once this is accomplished, 'then comes the end' and Christ puts down all rule & authority [as 'rule & authority' are not longer needed as ALL are saved], and God the Father is 'All in All' ['I shall be to them a God, and they shall be My people'...Jer 7:23, Ezek 34:30, Zech 8:8, 2 Cor 6:16, Heb 8:10, Rev 21:3]


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2010, 09:58:20 PM »


Hi Margo,

When Jesus Christ returns to earth with the Elect His rule and reign will bring about the "new heaven and a new earth," this is the throne of God, His kingdom the "new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God."  Mat 6:10 "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven."

Then will be the resurrection of the dead and all will be found guilty, because they are raised in their sins as they were when they died and these are the "dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie" from verse 15. Christ will have taken over rulership of the earth, it will become as a Lake of fire, "for our God is a consuming fire" (Heb 12:29). All in this resurrection of the dead are cast into this Lake of fire, which is the earth. But their judgment will be a process and that will take time to purge and cleanse them, that's what Christ's reign is for. Here are several verses that describe that time.

Isa 11:9  They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
       For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
       As the waters cover the sea.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
       Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
       For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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margo

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Re: Daniel and Revelation
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2010, 01:37:34 PM »

Thank you both Marques and Kat.  Wow, this is amazing truth that I did not understand.  I am so thankful that Our Lord is allowing me this truth.  I am sure I will have many more questions.  Just in the last three or so years the Lord called me out of Babylon and my eyes have been opened and I now have ears to hear. All Praise and Glory to Jesus Our King.

Love to all of you,
Margo
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