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Author Topic: "Human attempt at salvation"  (Read 8347 times)

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Amrhrasach

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"Human attempt at salvation"
« on: March 01, 2010, 08:18:41 PM »

LOF, Part XIV
Turning Our Idols Of The Heart Into Powder



"Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the “sword” of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12).  This is our human attempt at salvation."


Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. [/color]

Can someone expand on what Ray is teaching here about “this is our human attempt at salvation”?   We fall on Christ and are wounded by his word.   How does this make for a human attempt? Where is the attempt at salvation?

Thanks.

Gary
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Kat

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 09:54:27 PM »


Hi Gray,

Quote
Can someone expand on what Ray is teaching here about “this is our human attempt at salvation”?   We fall on Christ and are wounded by his word.   How does this make for a human attempt? Where is the attempt at salvation?

Our 'first love' when we are in the church and involved with all the traditions of men, this is our 'human attempt' at saving ourself. This is our spiritual house built on the sand. When that house comes crashing down and we are standing on the sand of the sea, then we see the beast within.

Here are where Ray speaks on this.
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ---------

Whenever someone is called of God and he repents, is baptized, confirmed, initiated, or whatever, it is into a church. And sooner or later that particular church will bring you to the point where you will leave your first love for God and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart. God calls His people OUT of the Babylonish System of Religion which has a strangle hold on ‘The Church.’

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ----------

I showed from the Scriptures in our last installment that we only become aware of the beast when we are standing on the "sand of the sea." AFTER our spiritual house built upon spiritual sand FALLS DOWN, and WE fall down. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that the

"…day of Christ… shall not come [to US] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST…" (II Thes. 2:1-2).

This "fall" by the way is not a little slip or a little stumble. It is a complete and total SPIRITUAL FALL! We all come to Christ with a simple childlike innocence. But … BUT, once we are in "the church of our choice," we start to get educated in the ways of Christendom. We learn of many rules based on the unscriptural traditions of men. We delight in many of these rules and traditions (sometimes not all of them), and before we know it, our new religion sooner or later TAKES US RIGHT BACK INTO THE WORLD that we thought we came out of.
v
Paul wasn’t telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left the first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have be enlightened by God’s word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:04:48 PM by Kat »
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Lupac

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2010, 12:56:52 AM »

Maybe this is my problem. I'm trying to "save myself". (Like I could...) Only God can save you. And He will.
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aqrinc

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2010, 01:36:30 AM »

Maybe this is my problem. I'm trying to "save myself". (Like I could...) Only God can save you. And He will.

Now that is wisdom Lupac, way to go, God does makes one see, when HE Is Ready. Read this passage, especially the two long sentences, wow.

1Co 1:17-31 (CLV)
17 For Christ does not commission me to be baptizing, but to be bringing the evangel, not in wisdom of word, lest the cross of Christ may be made void."

18 For the word of the cross is stupidity, indeed, to those who are perishing, yet to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

19 For it is written, I shall be destroying the wisdom of the wise, and the understanding of the intelligent shall I be repudiating."

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the discusser of this eon? Does not God make stupid the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in fact, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom knew not God, God delights, through the stupidity of the heralding, to save those who are believing,
22 since, in fact, Jews signs are requesting, and Greeks wisdom are seeking,
23 yet we are heralding Christ crucified, to Jews, indeed, a snare, yet to the nations stupidity,
24 yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God,
25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

26 For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble,
27 but the stupidity of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weakness of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong,
28 and the ignoble and the contemptible things of the world God chooses, and that which is not, that He may be discarding that which is,
29 so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight.

30 Yet you, of Him, are in Christ Jesus, Who became to us wisdom from God, besides righteousness and holiness and deliverance,
31 that, according as it is written, He who is boasting, in the Lord let him be boasting."

george ;D.

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Marlene

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2010, 02:06:59 AM »

Lupac, that is what it is. Trying to get your own salvation is carnal. I know, I was doing it but, could not see it. Everytime , I looked at the Beast I had no peace. I got stuck on that thing. Until, God showed me what it was. Your spiritual house falls. Then the fear leaves and peace will take over.

We really do need to except that God died for our sins. They are gone. Only, our mind tells us they are still held against us.God Loves us beyond what we can understand . We have been taught lies about God and some even come from ourself.  He wants us to be healed from our carnal mind. He died on that cross and we can go to him and ask him to help us overcome self.

I can tell from what you said, you are getting it now. I know without a doubt ,that when he was on the cross that was all of the worlds sins being forgivien. Something I have found out ,until we can see ourself like him, we cannot begin to overcome the carnal nature. We can say the word love, but do not even know the meaning. How can we forgive others if we do not feel that what he did on that cross was true. We believe our own lies our carnal mind tells us.
I am too bad for him. That, makes me more powerful then he is. We know, that is a lie. Once, we are able to come to him without fear, that is the begining of the change he is going to make in our carnal mind. We are not cut off from God ,Jesus Christ took care of that . Sin gives us guilt. But, God can change us no matter how bad we are. He knows when we hate our carnal mind.  We have so many lies in our carnal mind only he can show us where we are wrong.
I have come to find out ,that most of what we believe has come from all the carnal things we imagine. I am sick of being stuck on the cross trying to gain my own salvation. I am seeking the Mind of Christ. He had victory over everything. We can too.

In His Love,
Marlene

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 07:38:48 AM »

Hi Gary

Thank you for your question.

When we encounter Christ, we break down because our idols are ruined, destroyed and they break and cannot stand up in His Presence. Darkness can not stand the Light.

I believe that when we fall on Christ we don’t fall because WE want to or that we cause ourselves to. No. Only God can cause us to  fall on Christ and be wounded by His Word. Only God can drag us to His Son. When this happens then we fall into diverse temptations and trials as James wrote.

Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jas 1:5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


We see and it is clearly demonstrated that the entirety of Christendom has used their own efforts, curiosity and leanings on human understanding and imaginings,  to create their sermons, their tickling of ears, their entertainments to keep the flock duped into false beliefs and errors. There are many varieties that show this flaw in the multitude of false teachings that have emerged to fragment Christianity into over 3000 different denominations. Yet we have done the same leaning on what others who at one time we esteemed to know better than us, every time we draw on their, or our own, conclusions based on our human understanding of what God speaks in Parables, symbols and metaphor.

1Ti 6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.
 
The valuable insight shared with you already on what Ray expounds, the Scriptures given with insights and understanding already reached and expressed in this thread makes for some real good food for thought!
 

Arc
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 08:12:51 AM by Arcturus »
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Amrhrasach

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 01:44:58 PM »

Thank you Kat and Arcturus.


"when we are in the church and involved with all the traditions of men, this is our 'human attempt'"

"and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart"



"the entirety of Christendom has used their own efforts, curiosity and leanings on human understanding and imaginings,  to create their sermons, their tickling of ears, their entertainments to keep the flock duped into false beliefs and errors"


Something that’s been wandering through my mind since stumbling into Ray’s teachings.  As a child I attended a super small country church (3 different denominations depending on the Sunday) eventually moving into ‘THE’ church in the next town.  The problem is, as I remember, I never really cared for the teachings particularly the ever so popular hell doctrine, never understanding why a ‘loving’ God took such delight to burning souls of such a weak people.    Although I did ‘walk the aisle’ in that bigger church the moment was fleeting and it seemed I ‘knew’ in my heart that something was way wrong with their beliefs, possibly my own.   It could simply be that being from a very poor family we were snubbed by the ‘elite’, don’t know.  But when I decidedly left that church I’ve never gone back into a ‘church’ building for a service.   When I walked away I didn’t look back too often, if at all.   Nonetheless I suppose what I did learn was enough to get a taste of ‘organized religion’.   And reading scripture here and there over the years never produced an understanding of God’s word as Ray has in his understandings.  Spiritually dead, if ever alive, would be the best description.

I wasn’t ‘IN’ a church to be called ‘out’.  So I take it that while we may not be regularly attending a church building, he calls us from the indoctrination no matter where we are in our walk, church or no church.   But now I wonder where the loss of one’s first love in such a brief encounter? 
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mharrell08

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 02:03:58 PM »

I wasn’t ‘IN’ a church to be called ‘out’.  So I take it that while we may not be regularly attending a church building, he calls us from the indoctrination no matter where we are in our walk, church or no church.   But now I wonder where the loss of one’s first love in such a brief encounter?


Judges 17:6, 21:25  In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes

Prov 12:5  The way of a fool is right in his own eyes...

Prov 21:2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts


Gary,

Kat posted this excerpt from LOF #13:

Whenever someone is called of God and he repents, is baptized, confirmed, initiated, or whatever, it is into a church. And sooner or later that particular church will bring you to the point where you will leave your first love for God and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart. God calls His people OUT of the Babylonish System of Religion which has a strangle hold on ‘The Church.’

Whether one is in church for years or for a brief period of time, we all attempt to serve the Lord by 'what is right in our eyes'. We do this through observing and obeying the commandments and traditions of men. This attitude and mindset continues, even when physically walking out of a church, until the Lord chooses us and opens up our understanding to His Word.

Physically walking out of the church is only the VERY beginning of a long and enduring walk through the straight & narrow path.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Amrhrasach

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 03:19:28 PM »

But now I wonder where the loss of one’s first love in such a brief encounter?


Judges 17:6, 21:25  In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes

Prov 12:5  The way of a fool is right in his own eyes...

Prov 21:2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts


Gary,

Kat posted this excerpt from LOF #13:

Whenever someone is called of God and he repents, is baptized, confirmed, initiated, or whatever, it is into a church. And sooner or later that particular church will bring you to the point where you will leave your first love for God and turn to the church and its religion as the idol of your heart. God calls His people OUT of the Babylonish System of Religion which has a strangle hold on ‘The Church.’

Whether one is in church for years or for a brief period of time, we all attempt to serve the Lord by 'what is right in our eyes'. We do this through observing and obeying the commandments and traditions of men. This attitude and mindset continues, even when physically walking out of a church, until the Lord chooses us and opens up our understanding to His Word.

Physically walking out of the church is only the VERY beginning of a long and enduring walk through the straight & narrow path.


Hope this helps,

Marques


Pinpoint Marques and made in such a way that I understand.   Oh the guilt of breaking Ray's 1st law of scripture reading requirements........'read ALL the words'.

Gary
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Samson

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 06:15:12 PM »

Maybe this is my problem. I'm trying to "save myself". (Like I could...) Only God can save you. And He will.

Lupac,

           I really appreciated your comment above, it's only one sentence in length, but it speaks volumes and as simple and to the point as this comment is, God caused you somehow to say it, perhaps by the foolishness of preaching, as Ray often states, that's found at Bible-Truths. After first reading your response, I sincerely felt joy, instead of my sometimes frustration(only kidding with you, ;D). Jesus came to Save that which is Lost(Like you, me and all of us)

                                  Thanks, Samson.
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aqrinc

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2010, 01:22:14 AM »

Maybe this is my problem. I'm trying to "save myself". (Like I could...) Only God can save you. And He will.

Lupac,

           I really appreciated your comment above, it's only one sentence in length, but it speaks volumes and as simple and to the point as this comment is, God caused you somehow to say it, perhaps by the foolishness of preaching, as Ray often states, that's found at Bible-Truths. After first reading your response, I sincerely felt joy, instead of my sometimes frustration(only kidding with you, ;D). Jesus came to Save that which is Lost(Like you, me and all of us)

                                  Thanks, Samson.

So Be It, brothers and sisters.

Act 4:7-14 (MKJV)
7  And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name have you done this?

8  Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, Rulers of the people and elders of Israel,
9  if we are examined today on a good work for an infirm man, by what this one has been healed,
10  be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.

11  This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.

12  And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

13  But seeing the boldness of Peter and John, and perceiving that they were unlearned and uneducated men, they marveled. And they recognized them, that they had been with Jesus.

14  And beholding the man who was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

george ;D.

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Roy Coates

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2010, 02:07:43 PM »

What happened to Amrhrasach? AKA Gary who started this thread on 3-1-10 He is now listed as a guest  ???
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onelovedread

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2010, 04:56:29 PM »

I have been in a church that pretty much believes most of the things Ray does, except perhaps, they believe in a Secret Rapture and that Peter's ministry is to the Jews while Paul's is to the Gentiles. I was trying to stay with them but I see clearly where they worship the 'church's traditions' rather than God.
I now can not go back and have walked away. It's really difficult as I have close friends within, so I feel a tearing away.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2010, 05:14:27 PM »

You are not alone onelovedread. :)

Quote
I feel a tearing away.


I recall after I left Babylon, I felt like a huge claw had been removed from out of my back that went right through and into my chest. It was painful to disenguage.

Afterwards, things got better as I began to communicate, learn, read, think and focus on the Truth. It was a gradual process of recovery for me that continues leading into, thankfully, increasing distance between myself and Babylon.

You are blessed to be feeling the pain of separation from the lies. May you soon feel the joy of connection to the Truth!

God knows where your friends are. God can be and IS, the far better friend.

I know it is not easy. The 'friends' I left behind, did not care to seek me out after I left. They stayed behind and now if I encounter them I can see how much God has blessed me. I have no more in common with the 'friends' that are no longer....It has been a gradual process....Pray for patience and wisdom

Arc
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 05:24:22 PM by Arcturus »
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Roy Coates

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Re: "Human attempt at salvation"
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2010, 09:17:28 PM »

I have been in a church that pretty much believes most of the things Ray does, except perhaps, they believe in a Secret Rapture and that Peter's ministry is to the Jews while Paul's is to the Gentiles. I was trying to stay with them but I see clearly where they worship the 'church's traditions' rather than God.
I now can not go back and have walked away. It's really difficult as I have close friends within, so I feel a tearing away.
I can relate, it was bitter sweet. I miss the people not their doctrine
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