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Need some biblical insights on the term: the "many" and the "all" .
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Hector Moreno on March 07, 2010, 01:03:32 PM ---Jesus was fullfilling the Carnal rituals (Judaism Law),so that we dont have to do them anymore.Thats what i meant when I say Carnal Jesus ,the Jesus that practiced the Fathers will.
--- End quote ---
Hector,
There is no such thing as a 'Carnal Jesus' seeing that Jesus never changes [Heb 13:8]. Please take some time to read Ray's teachings and refrain from bringing your own teachings as almost everything you've posted has been unscriptural.
You don't need to delete your account or not post at all...simply read Ray material, compare with your own beliefs, and then either come to a resolution that is not in conflict with the forum rules or go about your business.
Thanks,
Marques
Lupac:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on March 06, 2010, 09:33:25 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nelson on March 06, 2010, 07:23:43 AM ---Hi folks,
Just my two bob's worth,
* "Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Ro 5:18,19)
The answer regarding 'all' and 'many' in this scripture is simple. The ALL is mankind INCLUDING CHRIST, the MANY is mankind EXCLUDING CHRIST. Christ was included in the judgment resulting in condemnation and the free gift resulting in justification to life because He took our sins upon Himself and took the punishment for those sins, death. He also became a partaker in the free gift of life being resurrected to life.
However, Christ did not inherit Adam's sin, only mankind did hence the 'many' (all excluding Christ) and by His act of obedience the same 'many' will be made righteous (Christ IS righteous and does not need to be made righteous).
Hope this helps.
Grace and peace to you and yours
Nelson
--- End quote ---
Hello Nelson,
Christ is not included in being judged by one's offense seeing as the Father has committed all judgment to His Son [John 5:22] and will judge the world by Jesus not against Him [Acts 17:31]. Jesus has never suffered condemnation or punishment from His Father, Christ voluntarily laid down His life [John 10:17-18].
Marques
--- End quote ---
Maybe you could elaborate why Paul change from "all" to "many" in that short passage?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Lupac on March 07, 2010, 05:45:38 PM ---Maybe you could elaborate why Paul change from "all" to "many" in that short passage?
--- End quote ---
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Lupac,
What difference does it make? The word 'all' can mean 'all, every, each' etc. or it can mean 'as many as'.
So then 'as many as' what? As many as have committed the 'offense of one'.
So who has committed this offense...this offense of the carnal mind to sin and disobey God? Is it really ALL including Christ that committed this offense? Or is it 'as many as'?
Whoever this same 'as many as' MUST have the free gift of Christ's righteous act to be justified. So, does Christ need to receive Himself in order to be justified [Rom 5:18]? Is Christ really included in the ALL of this passage?
And for anyone who thinks it is not carnality that causes the 'offense of one', Paul clears this up in the next verse:
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...
What is this disobedience and how is it caused?
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
Neither indeed can be subject to the law of God...or in other words, can neither be in obedience to the law of God.
THAT'S why Christ is NOT included with the all/'as many as'.
I hope I have elaborated enough for you,
Marques
mharrell08:
Members:
I did not want to come off as 'snappy' in the comments above. But I was annoyed because the FIRST response in this thread referenced a bible study by Ray which answers the question of 'all' and 'many'. As I stated then, this study answers these questions thoroughly and AFTER one reads/listens to it, then ask with a particular statement or comment in mind.
A discussion is when 2 or more parties talk AND LISTEN to one another. It can be annoying when the listening part is ignored but only talking, talking, talking. I was going to post this in Roy Martin's 'Expectations' thread, but I think a balanced discussion should be expected on a DISCUSSION board, not people talking without listening.
Thank you,
Marques
Lupac:
I've read that study by Ray. He doesn't say anything about the words "polus polos" IIRC. My question was, why does Paul use two different words? Was he making some kind of point by it, or was it just a change of style? It was just a question, I'm sorry if I annoyed you.
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