Ressurection

[ARisingSon]

I was reading today that Ray teaches man is body and spirit which together forms a living soul. I have read that the soul consists of mind(conscious and sub-conscious), will and emotions. The Bible indicates that the spirit returns to God who gave it.

So, what happens to all that made us who we are? That is every physical sense perception,every emotion generated, every thought, every interaction with every other human(and animal),etc. You get what I'm saying., I'm sure.  For there to be a ressurection of billions of people for the White Throne Judgment wouldn't they have to be reconstituted exactly as they were at their death?

Does Ray have a teaching on this?     Grace be with you.  Earl

[Kat]

Hi Earl,

For there to be a ressurection of billions of people for the White Throne Judgment wouldn't they have to be reconstituted exactly as they were at their death?

I think you have this about right.  Here is an email and a couple excerpts where Ray speak on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ----

The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm -------------------------------

And so Jesus' soul (like the patriarchs of old), did not go to any physical or geographical location, but rather went to the state or realm of the dead. They put dead bodies into graves, but they don't put souls ANYWHERE. Until the spirit of man is returned to a new body, his soul does not exist anywhere, but rather is in a condition of non-existence until his spirit which returns to God is reunited to a new body.

As C. S. Lewis said: "You don't have a soul, you ARE a soul, you HAVE a body." In other words, there is no soul without a body. That is total unscriptural and pagan nonsense. That is straight out of "The Book of the Dead" from the Egyptians, not the Holy Scriptures of God.
v
Jesus died, and was DEAD. When they put Jesus' body in the tomb, they put JESUS in the tomb. When Jesus died for the sins of the world; Jesus was dead, not just His body. And when Jesus rose from the dead, it was not just His body. It is JESUS Who is the "Saviour of the world," and not just a corpse, a body, a cadaver? Christians have taught the world that man can't die. That he has an immortal soul that cannot die. That when people die they are not dead. That at death people "go somewhere." It is all unscriptural pagan nonsense.

Jesus' soul, His sentient being, His intellect, feelings, emotions, and heart, which define the human soul, went into a state of "imperceptibility." His soul was in the realm or state of hades which means "the unseen, the imperceptible," the state of death, the realm of the dead, the sheol of the Hebrew.


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ---------------------------------

BODY

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

SPIRIT

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

This is substantiated by the fact that:

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

�         souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

�         souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

�         souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

�         souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

�         souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

�         souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

�         life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

�         souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

�         souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

�         none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

�         honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

�         even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

�         souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

�         souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

�         souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

�         and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[judith collier]

Hi Rising, sorry, highrise apts, came to mind, Don't ask. Anyway, hi Arisingson. You know as many times as I have thought about the same question I think I finally got it. When I first came onto this site I was devastated by the teaching that when we die we are dead, always having had the consolation of my loved ones being in a heavenly place with our Lord. I thought I had all this new stuff down but just a week ago I had this discussion again with a believer in instant heaven after death.
What was strange was the fact that I knew what her answer would be and in reality I was arguing once again with myself. It went like this, "if the Spirit of God returns to God and the Spirit of God is what keeps us alive then where does all our acquired thoughts and emotions go??"
When we are dead then ALL of US is dead. I can handle this now and only because of a more complete surrender. God is God and He can do with me whatever He decides. I don't fight it anymore but rather focus on the Sovereignty of an Almighty God. I am just thankful I have had life and whenever Ressurection day comes so be it.
Perhaps you have never had this problem but if you had been indoctrinated all your life with what I have described and have even an ounce of my temperment you will appreciate my turn-a-bout. That this thread comes at exactly the time of a more complete surrender of myself is a confirmation to me as I have not been on here for about 5 months. Judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

ARrising Son

I sense in you a light of insight that points us to look to the meaning of Resurrection. We know to pay attention to the words.

1Pe 3:21  Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

G386
ἀνάστασις
anastasis

an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
G450
ἀνίστημι
anistēmi
an-is'-tay-mee

From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).

We are resurrected into a clear conscience before God because of the Resurrection of Christ who is THE RESURRECTION and the Life of those He is conforming by His Spirit into His Image.

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe that you do ARisingSon. 

Arc

[Ninny]

Here is my opinion...I know that since God made us all individuals with our own unique personality then this is what I think...
The part of us that makes up our personality and character God keeps that with himself until the resurrection and then He gives it back to us..sort of like information on a computer chip..it's just information it's not alive...God has it and at the resurrection he puts it back in us...That's what I think about that part of it!
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Here is my opinion...I know that since God made us all individuals with our own unique personality then this is what I think...
The part of us that makes up our personality and character God keeps that with himself until the resurrection and then He gives it back to us..sort of like information on a computer chip..it's just information it's not alive...God has it and at the resurrection he puts it back in us...That's what I think about that part of it!
Kathy

Nice analogy Ninny.

george .

[ARisingSon]

Ninny, I too liked your analogy.
    Can this computer memory chip be our subconscious mind?  Psychologists tell us that every thing we've experienced all our life is stored in our subconscious.  Many psychologists  now admit that there is some thing nonphysical that drives our mind(both conscious and subconscious). This is,of course, the spirit in man from Father(the father of all spirits).  Apparently our subconscious is the memory chip that gets placed back into the reconstituted body at the resurrection. And as Ray teaches, our soul is the result of the spirit in man occupying  the body. Makes sense to me.  Thanks to everyone for your input.
    Grace be with you.     Earl

[margo]

[]Kat,can you help me with Ecc.3:21 "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth."  Not sure what the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth.  Sorry I don't know how to copy the quote.
Thank you, Margo.

[Kat]

Hi Margo,

Ecc 3:20  All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
Ecc 3:21  Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Here is the verse you were referring to. Now verse 20 is a statement of absolute truth "all return to dust." Now the next verse is a question, "who knows," concerning the animals I will not try to answer what even Solomon did not answer 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[margo]

Thanks Kat

That's wisdom. It is a question.

Blessings, Margo

[Marky Mark]

CLV
Ecc 3:21 Who is knowing about the spirit of the sons of humanity, Whether it is ascending above, And the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending below to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than that he rejoices in his works Since that is his portion; For who can bring him to see what shall come after him?

I wonder if we can ask ourselves if the above verse could have a higher level of  Spiritual understanding in what the Word is trying to convey.

I liken the ascending above to fall in line with the elects position of dwelling in a higher Spiritual realm or heaven [as in the mind of Christ] than those that dwell in a lower Spiritual realm which would be those that still worship the beast[those of the earth and the sea]. It would seem on the outset that only the Lord would know who are His. Only He would know who have left the earth in their Spiritual walk and now are in the Spirit ascending above the earthly walk, which would be a carnal way of thinking,just as the babylonian churches which make up the earth.

Just a thought.


Peace...Mark

[Deborah-Leigh]

I  think you and Kat together have identified something quite wonderful Marky Mark.

1Co 2:12  Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that WE can understand the things that were freely given to us by God.

Not to completely take this into another direction but to include - What are the things freely given to us by God? EVERYTHING.

If we understand the Sovereignty of God, that we do not have a free will, then it means that we can accept, understand and rejoice in the fact that we are counted as those who HAVE received the Spirit of God as we understand that EVERYTHING is given to us FROM HIM.

So we can know that we have the Spirit of God. We do not just have the Spirit of God as others have the Spirit of God sustaining their lives and in whom everything has its being. No. It is much more intimate than that. 

Can we recognize and apprehend and hold onto the fact that because the Spirit of God has opened our mind to receive the fact that He is in control and causing everything that we cannot cause or make happen, then that acknowledgement tells us WE have the Sprit of God. The I/you that has the Spirit of God is that part of me/you that is conscious, awake, alert and alive. The soul.

If I tell you I have the Spirit of God...does it mean I possess God as His controller and ruler? No! It means that God has freely given me His Spirit and HE, God Who is Spirit,  dwells with me. He loses nothing to give His Spirit to me and awaken me to the fact that His Spirit is given freely.
The Spirit of God understands God.  So whoever understands God, has His Spirit!

Well we can discern from this exactly who does and who does not understand God.

If you understand that there is no such thing as free will, that God is the cause of EVERYTHING, and that ANYTHING you have in the way of EVERYTHING that can be owned or enjoyed or experienced, is from God.....then guess what.....you/WE have the Spirit of GOD!

To confirm this:

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined the things that God has prepared for those who love him."
1Co 2:10  But God has revealed those things to US by His Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.

Arc

[Phil3:10]

To all,
What a great post, you guys have really hit the nail on the head concerning GOD'S spirit. It is freely given but must be spiritually discerned. Would it not be most glorious if all could understand that everything is of GOD. The deep things of GOD is what we spiritually need to be searching for as they are not easily found. This site and the contributions of all has helped me so very much in my spiritual development.
My thanks to all who contribute to this forum. I never found this fellowship in the walls of the churches I have attended.
In HIM,
Phil3:10