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Author Topic: Deliverance  (Read 14875 times)

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FREEINDEED

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Deliverance
« on: June 21, 2006, 02:18:44 AM »

I'm kind of new to this forum.  But in my research of this website.  I haven't really came across anyone discussing Deliverance.  When I was attending Church on a regular basis.  We would have Deliverance services.  Since coming to know some truth about the word of God.  I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?
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Lightseeker

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Deliverance
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 01:11:45 PM »

FREEINDEED,

OK, I'll jump in.  Welcome to BT Freeindeed.

Quote
I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?

Free, this is a minor point, but a lesbian is a homosexual.  But as to your question: Is it His will?  If it's happening I'd have to say, "Yes!"  But the greater question is, is it His 'good' 'acceptable' 'perfect will'?  Or is it just His 'good will', or 'good and acceptable will'?  The following verse seems to indicate that something is required to meet the 'completed' will of God.  All things came forth from God, are being processed through God, and ultimately will return to God.  This is what accomplishes His 'completed will', I think.  :wink:

ROM 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

So how does one get a renewing of...mind that they might 'prove' His 'complete will'?  It looks to me like it has something to do with our 'choice' in thinking first.  And according to the following verse 'good works' (life changes?) follow renewed thinking.  And as a man thinks...so is/does he.

HEB 13:20.21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.  

Though most here would say, from the above verse, that it is still 'God' who makes you perfect, and not our 'free will'.  I would agree.  But IMO, it is still our 'choice' (a term Ray approves of) to repent .  It's our 'choice' to die to self and drink his blood/life of the 'everlasting covenant'.  When that life raises us up we no longer walk in death in that area of our life.

Free, I have personally known a homosexual who has come out of this lifestyle and operated a ministry in our small town.  A town where even today, they're mostly in the closet.  I'm curious as to why you're asking the question?  And what it has to do with deliverance, or is that a second question.
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gmik

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deliverance
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2006, 01:13:41 PM »

I used to go to churches that would "deliver" people from various things.
I don't know now with my new found knowledge.  Maybe at Mike's site you can search- put in deliverance and see if he has said anything on it.

I know God can heal, deliver, answer prayer.  I think it was a Mike Williams that got "delivered" of homosexuality....and now years later he has a website that says he was a phoney and did not get delivered.

Sometimes I get confused on everything being the will of God, but then He can remake the pottery with a contrite heart.
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Craig

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Deliverance
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 10:59:46 AM »

Quote from: bobbys43
God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.

 I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.

bobby


I could be way out in left field here, but...

We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:

Craig
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Andy_MI

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Deliverance
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 12:00:29 PM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: bobbys43
God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.

 I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.

bobby


I could be way out in left field here, but...

We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:

Craig


Hello Craig,

I think you're right. These verses came to mind when I thought about this. Let me know what you think.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Mar 13:9  But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.


Psa 38:19  But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied.
Psa 38:20  They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.

Psa 56:2  Mine enemies would daily swallow me up: for they be many that fight against me, O thou most High.

Am I on the same track as you? I sure can see God using unbelievers as well as the babylon system to judge us now.

Andy
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buddyjc

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Deliverance
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 12:17:33 PM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: bobbys43
God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.

 I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.

bobby


I could be way out in left field here, but...

We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:

Craig


Very interesting...

We do everything according to God's purpose, but rarely do anything according to His will.  We all go through bad times, and do things we are not proud of, but this enables us to comfort those who go through the same things.  The Thessalonians were going through great persecution, and Paul told them to comfort one another.

1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Brian
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Harryfeat

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Deliverance
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2006, 03:32:33 PM »

Quote from: parsonssc
Quote from: bobbys43
God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.

 I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.

bobby


I could be way out in left field here, but...

We know that God uses the elect to judge the masses in the next age, do you suppose He uses the masses for judgement on the elect now? :?:

Craig


I have often thought along similar lines.  It was not so much judgement that I equate as much as a "trial by fire" kind of relationship.  The masses become the temptors to overcome.  Who better than someone like yourself to tempt you to fall from the path to the spiritual.  How many distractions can fellow humans make?

God took human form to show us the way.  We have an example to emulate.  We have Christ on one hand and the rest of mankind on the other.

Thanks to Adam and Eve we have knowledge from the tree of good and evil.  Christ made man is our living example of how to deal with and use that knowledge.

You can read and debate all the scripture you want but Christ gave us but two commandments.  



FREEINDEED WROTE:
..."I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?"...

Welcome to the forum.  I find it sad but not unusual that your first question to the forum asks about homosexuality.  It is a far sadder commentary that religious and governmental leaders are so concerned about gay marriage and feeding the flames of homophobia.

What is there to fear about homosexuals?  I don't understand it.  True enough it is a lifestyle choice or biological trait that I do not fully understand.  However, someone's sex life is not what a person is but just a small part of who they are.

You ask if someone can be delivered from being what God made them.  I say yes.  We are all to be delivered from what God made us as humans.  We will be resurrected to be spiritual entities.  Our human fleshy bodily needs and functions will no longer exist.

What about this life.  Are homosexuals meantto be a distraction to the elect as Craig suggests. They might be if we become bigots and choose to judge them.  I suggest that  adulterers, drunkards, liars, thieves and anyone else who actually does things that causes hurt to themselves or another surely are.

Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person.  Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about.  Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?

I know two such people.  They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men.  They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.  

I don't fear them.  I don't understand why others do.  There is very little likelihood that I will turn into a homosexual just as they say there is very little likelihood that they will turn into heterosexuals.  They say that homosexuality was not a choice for them, that God made them or willed them that way.   Their question to me was  "Who would choose a way of life despised by the majority, subjected to constant physical or verbal abuse?"

I didn't mean to get off on a tangent but I see so much hurt and betrayal caused by adultery where a spouse is deceived and dishonored through that lack of fidelity.  

Again, welcome. I hope that you are able to find the truth you seek.

feat
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Craig

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Deliverance
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2006, 04:13:58 PM »

Quote from: bobbys43
Craig you have brought up a good point and I see it this way.

If the elect are being judged by the masses we know that this is not righteous judgment.

God is THE righteous judge.

bobby


Bobby, I didn't mean the elect are being judged by the masses.  I meant that God is using the masses to judge the elect.

Clear as mud :?:  :D

Craig
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Lightseeker

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Deliverance
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2006, 05:01:17 PM »

Quote from: bobbys43
God said he created some to honor and some to dishonor.

I would suggest you read the first couple of chapters of Romans and I think this will answer your question.

bobby


Could you be more specific in your verse references?  As I look at Romans I don't know if God created them that way or not.  Look at the following verse.

ROM 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  

This verse indicates that they 'knew God' before.  And I'm wondering if it was because they refused to change, after coming to know Him, that they were not giving glory to God.  In essence, after being spiritually reborn and spirit saved, they were refusing His progressive salvation of Christ's life into their "Christian" life walk.  They then 'became vain' and their enlightened hearts became 'darkened'.  

I don't think "glorifying God" means sitting around singing 'glory, glory, glory' either.  I think that glory, from man to God, is always associated with a lifestyle change that 'manifests/reveals/glorifies the light' of the life of Christ within.  If we say "Yes! Yes!" but walk with the devil, then we are glorifying/manifesting/revealing the devil's life in us (which is really death).  

As I read Romans 1, I see several other verses which indicate that it is talking about believers who have accepted the salvation of their spirits by receiving Jesus as savior, but they are not working out the salvation of their walk on earth by making the life changes prompted by making Him Lord when convicted by the Spirit, as to sin in their life.  They are basically backslidden unto the point of being the "pig in its wallow" and the "dog eating his vomit."  Thoughts?

Harryfeat

I like your "trial by fire" POV.  I've often said that I believe in this age, those who are not going to be called are here for that very reason of trying and testing the character of Christ into, or out of, us.
Quote

What is there to fear about homosexuals? I don't understand it. True enough it is a lifestyle choice or biological trait that I do not fully understand. However, someone's sex life is not what a person is but just a small part of who they are.

Harry, I totally agree with not fearing homos, and honestly feel like that term is really  to invoke a "woe is us because of paranoid crazy religious nuts" attitude for the homosexual community/agenda.  Maybe that's because of my locality and local POV.  Do you feel that sexual sins appear to have a greater 'gravity?' in God's eyes, and therefore in scripture, than other sins?  

Quote
Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person. Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about. Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?

I know two such people. They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men. They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.

Let me first say this, I believe one can be a homosexual and still enter into life in the hereafter. But I am curious, are these two, professing Christianity?  Do they look at their 'lifestyles' as being 'approved by God'...or as sin which they struggle with?
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Harryfeat

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Deliverance
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2006, 05:52:30 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker

Harry, I totally agree with not fearing homos, and honestly feel like that term is really  to invoke a "woe is us because of paranoid crazy religious nuts" attitude for the homosexual community/agenda.  Maybe that's because of my locality and local POV.  Do you feel that sexual sins appear to have a greater 'gravity?' in God's eyes, and therefore in scripture, than other sins?  

Quote
Do you know anyone who you consider to be a really nice person. Someone who you would have nothing but positive things to say about. Someone who you would think had a great shot at sainthood?

I know two such people. They happen to be a couple and they happen to both be men. They have taught me a lot about my own fears and insecurities just by seeing their example.

Let me first say this, I believe one can be a homosexual and still enter into life in the hereafter. But I am curious, are these two, professing Christianity?  Do they look at their 'lifestyles' as being 'approved by God'...or as sin which they struggle with?


Hello Dee,
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding]  I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line.  However, what is your definition of sexual sin?    I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell :shock:  [j/k]  

I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts.  We are little different from other animals in our physical needs.  It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin.  What is your definition of sin?

The answer to your second question about whether my friends are christian or not is simply irrelevant to their "salvation".  The fact is I never asked them about their religious persuasion.
However, they have told me that they find nowhere in scripture where Christ is quoted as saying that any consensual sex act other than adultery as a sin. They also stated that the ten commandments do not refer to any consensual sex prohibitions other than adultery.  Their emphasis was always on the word consensual.

This is their response to the question you ask.

I hope that helps assuage your curiosity.  

feat
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FREEINDEED

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2006, 12:32:30 AM »

Hi Lightseeker,

First I would like to thank everyone for responding to my post.  The reason I asked this question is because it is a very controversy subject right now.  The whole world is in a uproar about this subject.  I was watching a movie on Lifetime entitle "A Girl Like Me."  It was about a young man that had male genitals.  But in his brain he thought that he was a woman.  The world call this individual a Transgender.  I posted my question really just to get an understanding on what the truth is?  How shall we the Body of Christ respond to people that we believe are struggling with this lifestyle? Should we just let them be and say that they were borned this way or should we continue to tell them that they shouldn't be this way and that it is an abomination in God's eyesight.  I came to this website, because I know that we are seeking the Truth and by reading all the different post.  I see that we have different views on this subject.
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Lightseeker

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 02:03:50 PM »

I've been lost for a while here.   Didn't know the forum was back until I Googled it today.

Bobby

Quote
Dee God gives us choices and that life style is a choice which God gave them over to.

Romans 1:28

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

The original question...I think...was, did God make them homosexual?  None of your scriptural refrences say...yes IMO.  They all say we were created 'under sin' 'not righteous' 'all have sinned' ect.  And I agree with all of that.  But none of these verses say what kind of sin or sinner we would end up being. 

In the above verse they apparently had God in their knowledge but didn't want to retain that way of thinking therefore God finally gave them over and let them have their reprobate thinking.

Anyway just some thoughts.

HARRYFEAT


Quote
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding]  I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line.  However, what is your definition of sexual sin?    I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell


1CO 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


The term 'abusers of themselves is also translated 'sexual pervert' RSV,' homosexual/offender' NAS NIV and 'sodomite' in YLT.  That's why I asked about 'gravity' of sexual sins being greater, since it says they won't inherit the kingdom of God.  Curious as to your thoughts on this verse.  As far as cattle, monkeys ect. practicing homosexual behavior I guess I put them in a lower state than that of man.  They aren't accountable for participating in the the fall which has affected 'all' of creation.  That's why "all of creation groaneth awaiting deliverance".


1JO 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 

Quote
I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts.  We are little different from other animals in our physical needs.  It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin.  What is your definition of sin?

I believe that an 'iniquity' is the inherited spiritual tendency to commit a sin.  A 'transgression' is a failure in our mind, will, emotional realm (soul) where we make the decision to bodily commit 'sin' (either by action...or inaction [or sins of commission or omission]).  Saying a lot to get to the last definition of...Sin itself is just 'missing the mark'.  Hope that definition helps.

Company showed up gotta quit for a while,


« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 05:14:51 PM by Lightseeker »
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Harryfeat

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2006, 07:12:47 PM »

I've been lost for a while here.   Didn't know the forum was back until I Googled it today.

[

HARRYFEAT


Quote
The easy answer to your first question about greater gravity is no, absolutely not. [Isaac Newton notwithstanding]  I believe that the gravity of sexual sin was an outgrowth of the old testament where the laws were meant to keep the children in line.  However, what is your definition of sexual sin?    I have a somewhat qwerky view. I don't believe that there are such things as sins of the flesh. If there were, homosexual cattle would be going straight to hell


1CO 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


The term 'abusers of themselves is also translated 'sexual pervert' RSV,' homosexual/offender' NAS NIV and 'sodomite' in YLT.  That's why I asked about 'gravity' of sexual sins being greater, since it says they won't inherit the kingdom of God.  Curious as to your thoughts on this verse.  As far as cattle, monkeys ect. practicing homosexual behavior I guess I put them in a lower state than that of man.  They aren't accountable for participating in the the fall which has affected 'all' of creation.  That's why "all of creation groaneth awaiting deliverance".


1JO 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 


As far as the verse goes, all it says to me is there is no difference in severity or "gravity".   It doesn't matter where you classify it, it is no better or worse than any other be it sexual or otherwise.  If you read Leviticus you get the distinct impression that some things are more grave than others and require death or stoning.  My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line.  If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising.  When  looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture. 

I am sorry my inteintions were not clear. The sending cattle to hell remark was a tongue in cheek absolute joke.  It was not meant to be taken seriously. [see also my next comments about our spiritual side distinguishing us.] 



Quote
I believe that sins are commited long before there has been any physical result from our thoughts.  We are little different from other animals in our physical needs.  It is my belief that it is our spiritual side that distinguishes us and where we commit sin.  What is your definition of sin?
I believe that an 'iniquity' is the inherited spiritual tendency to commit a sin.  A 'transgression' is a failure in our mind, will, emotional realm (soul) where we make the decision to bodily commit 'sin' (either by action...or inaction [or sins of commission or omission]).  Saying a lot to get to the last definition of...Sin itself is just 'missing the mark'.  Hope that definition helps.

Company showed up gotta quit for a while,



Quote

Miissing the mark  seems to capture the essence of failure.  There is no quantification or qualification  of this failure in terms of gravity or seriousness.  If you miss the mark then it doesn't matter what the nature of the failure was. All failure seems to be equal. 

It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh".  What do you say they are?


feat

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Lightseeker

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2006, 08:20:39 PM »

HARRYFEAT

You don't think the last verse I quoted speaks to a difference in severity of sin?

1JO 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

How do you view this verse?

Quote
  My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line.

"In line"?  For what purpose?  I had always heard that they were to reveal the need for a savior because they/us could never live up to the law.

GAL 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 

Sorry I missed the cow joke.  ???  Hey you never know here what people believe about some things.  ;)

Quote
It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh".  What do you say they are?

This may come off clear as mud...but here goes.  I think that all sins which stem from a "lust of the flesh" are sins of the flesh.  Whereas all sins that stem from a "lust of the eyes" are a soulish sin.  And lastly are sins that stem from the "pride of life" are  spiritual sins.  It's not that they are "different kinds of sin" as much as they are from different avenues of temptation.

1JO 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 

Gotta go...Mama wants me to take her to the movies tonight.
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Ward

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2006, 08:24:10 PM »

I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?

Yes... All "Homosexuals and Lesbians," will be delivered from this Lifestyle.  It will happen either during this life time or during the Lake of Fire.  It will be brought about via God's Chastening Grace.  

In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners.  I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one.  I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins.  What a FOOL I WAS! :-[

Homosexuality is a sin...  BUT, I've been given to see that it is no more a sin than any other sin.  Yes, it IS a "sexual sin"... :o  Just like the lusting (sexual) sin I commited when I looked at many women. Just like when I..... (You get the picture.)

Hmmm.... Where does that put me?  No less a sinner...  A sexual sinner at that!!!  Guilty of 1 = Guilty of ALL. :'(

I began to wonder, "Why do THEY have those desires?"  I couldn't imagine having them...  But thankfully I can see now...  
IF I was born with the same gifts... (Both negative and positive)
IF I was born into the same environment... (Time, parents, siblings, friends, school, etc.)
IF I was in the same situations...
I WOULD BE A HOMOSEXUAL, too.  I was created marred, too.

Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin?  
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited.  "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one.  No Siree... Not ME!"  So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone.  (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)

Sin is Sin... Thankfully, God's Chastening Grace fits all sizes, shapes, and colors.

Ward
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Harryfeat

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Re: Deliverance
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2006, 08:56:26 PM »

HARRYFEAT

You don't think the last verse I quoted speaks to a difference in severity of sin?

1JO 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

How do you view this verse?

Quote
  My perception is that the OT and all of its laws were meant to keep the Jews in line.

"In line"?  For what purpose?  I had always heard that they were to reveal the need for a savior because they/us could never live up to the law.

GAL 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 

Sorry I missed the cow joke.  ???  Hey you never know here what people believe about some things.  ;)

Quote
It is still not clear to me how this definition fits into a category of "sins of the flesh". What do you say they are?

This may come off clear as mud...but here goes.  I think that all sins which stem from a "lust of the flesh" are sins of the flesh.  Whereas all sins that stem from a "lust of the eyes" are a soulish sin.  And lastly are sins that stem from the "pride of life" are  spiritual sins.  It's not that they are "different kinds of sin" as much as they are from different avenues of temptation.

1JO 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 

Gotta go...Mama wants me to take her to the movies tonight.

I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising.  When  looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.

I personally do not believe that there is any real difference in "missing the mark"  It doesn't matter how you categorize what that failure is.  The sin of one is the sins of all. 

Your definition of sins of the flesh contains the word lust.  So do you think that a physical act can be a sin or is it just the lust to perform it?


The old testament law "was our schoolmaster" is the key to what I am saying about being designed to keep the Jews in line.  It was much like how we treat our toddlers so they learn to live without too much danger in the physical world around them..  Don't touch this, don't do that. and then punish them so they wont do it again.  The ot laws emphasized the physical world also, not the spiritual.  Don't eat this, don't do that. Being stoned means to us a whole different thing than the actual physical stoning in  Leviticus.

I hope that helps you understand what I meant by keeping them in line.


Enjoy the movie
feat
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orion77

  • Guest
Re: Deliverance
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2006, 12:56:17 AM »

I was wondering if Homosexuals and Lesbians can be delivered from this Lifestyle or if it's God will for them to live this way?

Yes... All "Homosexuals and Lesbians," will be delivered from this Lifestyle.  It will happen either during this life time or during the Lake of Fire.  It will be brought about via God's Chastening Grace.  

In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners.  I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one.  I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins.  What a FOOL I WAS! :-[

Homosexuality is a sin...  BUT, I've been given to see that it is no more a sin than any other sin.  Yes, it IS a "sexual sin"... :o  Just like the lusting (sexual) sin I commited when I looked at many women. Just like when I..... (You get the picture.)

Hmmm.... Where does that put me?  No less a sinner...  A sexual sinner at that!!!  Guilty of 1 = Guilty of ALL. :'(

I began to wonder, "Why do THEY have those desires?"  I couldn't imagine having them...  But thankfully I can see now...  
IF I was born with the same gifts... (Both negative and positive)
IF I was born into the same environment... (Time, parents, siblings, friends, school, etc.)
IF I was in the same situations...
I WOULD BE A HOMOSEXUAL, too.  I was created marred, too.

Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin?  
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited.  "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one.  No Siree... Not ME!"  So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone.  (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)

Sin is Sin... Thankfully, God's Chastening Grace fits all sizes, shapes, and colors.

Ward


Amen to that, Ward.

Don't know what is worse, a homo, a homophobic, or one making fun of them both.   ???

We are all sinners and not deserving to what has been given to us.  God is truly forgiving, full of mercy and love.  We are just a bunch of dumb a-s-s-e-s-s, who can't see the whole purpose. 

Judge, judge, judge, never could understand how a sinner can condemn another sinner.

God bless,

Gary
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Lightseeker

  • Guest
Re: Deliverance
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2006, 03:26:48 AM »

WARD

Quote
Why do hetrosexuals seem so interested in pointing out the homosexuals' sin? 
My belief, at this point, is that hetrosexuals believe that the sin of homosexuality is the ONE sin they can claim the never commited.  "Yep... I may have commited every other sin there is, but I didn't do that one.  No Siree... Not ME!"  So that must make it worse. Right? And of course its my job to point this out to everyone.  (Point out those HOMOs so that nobody notices my own sins is more like it.)

I have a question for you.  What exactly is 'the sin' of homosexuality?  Is it committing a homosexual act?  If that is 'the sin' then I must confess that I committed it...have you?  I hope no one here thinks I'm judging them as a 'worse sinner', because I truly don't believe that and am not trying to give that impression.  I do feel like they are more lost though.  Not so lost that the Shepherd won't eventually find them and allow them to willingly bow the knee mind you.  But more lost in this age...just like some of us are "saved" to a greater degree in this age...according to scripture.  So if some are saved to a greater degree, then I am admittedly as_uming (sic) that some are 'lost' to a greater degree.  Is that because of a "sin unto death" in this age only?  That's the question I am asking based upon the following scripture.  Which no one has addressed yet. 

1JO 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

What's your take on this verse Ward?

FEAT


Quote
I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising.  When  looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.


You're right...I couldn't find a verse saying 'that' anywhere, from Christ.  Couldn't find one with Him telling me to not beat my wife either...dang she's gonna hate getting beat from now on.....I'm sure you see my point.  :D  I will be honest though and admit that what you're doing with 1 John though, bothers me.  My bible says "all scripture is inspired by God".  Do you believe you/we hear God better than they did?  Are we really devoid of the 'steeping' we've received from 1000 years of Catholicism from the dark ages?  How many here are even more than 'just a few years' out, from the 'stain of influence' that truths taught here at  BT sets one free from?  I truly wonder.

Quote
I personally do not believe that there is any real difference in "missing the mark"  It doesn't matter how you categorize what that failure is.  The sin of one is the sins of all.


I would agree as far as 'life in the hereafter' is concerned, but would not agree as far a' life in this age' though.

Quote
Your definition of sins of the flesh contains the word lust.  So do you think that a physical act can be a sin or is it just the lust to perform it?

If it was just 'the lust to perform it' then Christ would be a sinner.  For scripture says:
HEB 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 

Quote
The old testament law "was our schoolmaster" is the key to what I am saying about being designed to keep the Jews in line.  It was much like how we treat our toddlers so they learn to live without too much danger in the physical world around them..  Don't touch this, don't do that. and then punish them so they wont do it again.  The ot laws emphasized the physical world also, not the spiritual.  Don't eat this, don't do that. Being stoned means to us a whole different thing than the actual physical stoning in  Leviticus.

I guess I feel like I'm still under the law in any area where I'm not submitted to Christ.  And if I don't submit to Christ in those areas when convicted by the Spirit...then I will reap the judgment that comes with those areas where I'm still a 'toddler' in my thinking.

Your sure right about 'being stoned' meaning something different.  I was a hippie when 'called' of God and given the faith to believe.  For years I told guys I spilled more good pot than they'd ever smoked (Viet Nam had its HIGH points).

The movie was good, Mama (my wife) and I both enjoyed it.  I also enjoyed the 5 dollar bag of popcorn...what a rip though.  :( 


FREE

Quote
In the past I was one of the many that actually thought that "THEY" were evil sinners.  I believed that "THEY" had a choice and simply made the wrong one.  I actually believed that homosexuality was a sin above sins.


For the record, I think WE were/are evil sinners.  At least I don't know anyone who's made IT yet in overcoming sin totally.  I agree with you that they had a CHOICE and made the wrong one.  Just like I had a choice after my homosexual sin.  I believe that I chose not to do it again.  But I'm still not sure about sexual sins not being worse.  Not just homosexual sin but all sexual sins.  I say that because of the following scripture.

1CO 6:18  Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 

Why doesn't it just say FLEE SIN?  Why the distinction about 'without/outside the body' versus 'sinning against his own body'.  What do you do with this verse.

It's late and I've got an early bike ride with a Baptist bro.  Nite all.
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Deliverance
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2006, 10:30:59 PM »

Hello light seeker,

There is more than one scripture that commands us not to "beat" a wife or any other human being.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [It is evil to hit another]...

Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.

It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.

Homosexuality is no different than any other sin that must be repented of. God willing He will grant unto all repentence.

"We are given repentance" [acts  5:31]

 "God Granted repentance" [acts 11:18]

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

All good things come from God, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]

This however is just "temporary" For when thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.[isa 26:9]

Chris R
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Harryfeat

  • Guest
Re: Deliverance
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2006, 12:22:06 AM »



FEAT


Quote
I will repeat my statement from the last post: If you can find anywhere in the new testament where there is a quote from Christ about gravity then perhaps my pov about the ot laws may need revising.  When  looking at the topic of sin, I tend to question anything written by the apostles as a carryover from their backgound steeped in Jewish law and ot scripture.


You're right...I couldn't find a verse saying 'that' anywhere, from Christ.  Couldn't find one with Him telling me to not beat my wife either...dang she's gonna hate getting beat from now on.....I'm sure you see my point.  :D  I will be honest though and admit that what you're doing with 1 John though, bothers me.  My bible says "all scripture is inspired by God".  Do you believe you/we hear God better than they did?  Are we really devoid of the 'steeping' we've received from 1000 years of Catholicism from the dark ages?  How many here are even more than 'just a few years' out, from the 'stain of influence' that truths taught here at  BT sets one free from?  I truly wonder.




Hello Lightseeker.

I am not sure what I am "doing to 1John"  that bothers you.  Going with the thought that all scripture is inspired by God, how do you compare your reaction with regard to sin,  to the law and it's administration in Leviticus with 1John.  If you say that there is no difference in how you view them in terms of the nature and gravity of what is a sin then I think I understand. 

As I said, when it comes to a discussion of sin, I gravitate to  Christ's words rather than his apostles.  Christ gave us two main commandments to love God and our neighbor as our selves.  The understanding is that if we love our neighbor we would not do things that are hurtful to them.  This encompasses things like beating your wife, lying , cheating, stealing, adultery, etc.  Christ also mentions the ten commandments as examples  of ways that we can do harm to others.  In my view, the apostles have elaborated on sins and have structured them much like the ot in terms of graviity and onerousness.  That's why I said that when it comes to the apostles discussing sin, I tend to question what they are saying in terms of gravity because I think they tend to carry forward an old testament point of view on gravity whereas, I have not seen that in anything quoted from Christ.

I think Chris has done an excellent job of answering your other questions. If I missed a point please respond.

feat

ps I haven't bought popcorn in a theater since then started brining in giant bags of that stale crap instead of popping it fresh on site.  Five bucks huh. :o


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