> General Discussions
Deliverance
rocky:
I hope this doesn't side track this thread too much, but here is my two cents on what the sin unto death is.
Sin unto death for me, in simple terms; is to deny Christ (after being given the spirit by faith) by going back to the law.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away (for me, to revert back to law) , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (for me, this is the sin unto death)
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
by faith, we won't sin willfully,
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
All sin is forgiven, if living by faith, if the light is shining in us. If we have the light, we see our sin, and confess it.
If we revert back to living by the law, we see no need for Christ, we are blinded by the law, and no longer see our sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
We will confess our sins, if by faith, Christ lives in us, by His Light, in us. We are in need of a doctor, we see our sickness.
1Jo 5:4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing in Him, to me means we believe he is the only way to forgive sins. We rely on him to do this.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? (this to me is the sin unto death)
Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Lightseeker:
CHRIS,
--- Quote ---There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.
--- End quote ---
As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position. I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God. Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families. Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father? But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.
--- Quote ---It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.
--- End quote ---
Amen to that. The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not. What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge. 8) It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.
HARRY,
--- Quote ---I am not sure what I am "doing to 1John" that bothers you.
--- End quote ---
Maybe I wasn't clear. It wasn't really your view of 1 John, it was your discounting the writings of the disciples (John of 1Joh) and giving more weight to the OT authors and Jesus. I guess for me the OT authors are equal with the NT authors. As far as your emphasis on the words of Jesus...He never wrote anything in scripture...you are still totally dependent upon 'inspiration' from God concerning scripture written by the apostles...aren't you?
--- Quote ---Going with the thought that all scripture is inspired by God, how do you compare your reaction with regard to sin, to the law and it's administration in Leviticus with 1John. If you say that there is no difference in how you view them in terms of the nature and gravity of what is a sin then I think I understand.
--- End quote ---
OK here I go on a limb. The Name/nature of God of the OT changed. It was different for Abraham Issac and Jacob than it was for Moses and those 'under the law'. That change took place with the law.
EXO 6:2 And God said to Moses, "I am the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself known to them.
There was a change in religion and priests with the name of Jehovah and His law. No longer could people get away with things like Abraham did with his wife which would have deserved death 'under the law'. No longer was Melchizadec the priest...but Aaron and his sons. When Jesus came there once again was a change of religion, priesthood and name of God which we call upon (all appologies to the JW's). Anyway Leviticus/law and Jehovah dealt with sin with judgment...but mercy and truth came with Jesus ("neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more") I hope this brief POV which is so much deeper than I'm able to relay, helps to answer your question.
WARD
--- Quote ---Have I committed this sin? Regrettably, yes... I haven't physically done it, but the sin was still there.
--- End quote ---
I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier. If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
JAM 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
If you never committed the act you never sinned. You merely were tempted at the level of lusting to commit the act. And if you didn't commit the sin then you aren't judged with death in whatever area that sin affects.
GEN 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Sounds to me like you never let the sin master you because you didn't do it. You only 'thought' about doing it and that's not a sin...it's a transgression.
--- Quote ---The sin(s) mentioned aren't specific or special. (If they are, I sure can't find them listed in the scriptures. Clue me in if you have.)
--- End quote ---
No I don't guess I have found them either, and that's why I'm asking questions here too.
--- Quote ---By the way... Thanks for asking me. You made me think about this more than I ever have before and that's a good thing.
I hope that what's been given to me to share is helpfull. And please forgive any newbie mistakes. These are my very first posts ever.
--- End quote ---
Thank you Ward, I love being told I've made people think. I've been told that many times by brethren in my church. A place where I must ask questions which demand an answer (from those with eyes/ears) which shows traditional christianity is wrong...IMO. Many come to me later seeking deeper understanding than they presently walk in.
BTW welcome to BT and I haven't noticed a newbie mistake myself. ;)
Chris R:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker on July 02, 2006, 02:49:24 AM ---CHRIS,
--- Quote ---There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates we makes "choices" free and independent from our creator.
--- End quote ---
As I've studied and read what Ray teaches concerning this I've ended up in a unusual position. I see the scriptures which point to no free will as pertaining to 1. matters of state and 2. being birthed into the family of God. Number 2. is consistant with nature and our own earthly families. Which of us 'decided' to be born of our mother and father? But after birth/rebirth...physical and spiritual I see scripture giving me more choice than seems to be 'generally' believed here at BT.
--- Quote ---It is God that shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy, and hardens whom he will harden.
--- End quote ---
Amen to that. The sun that melts butter also bakes the clay. Whether I'm butter or clay matters not. What does matter is the attitude of my heart...am I melting willingly or am I whining about not being put back in the fridge. 8) It's a big concept to wrap ones mind around.
--- End quote ---
Hello Light,
I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices? We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.
And since God is the cause of all things, He is in complete control of everything. right down to the hairs on our head, it is mans inability to see the true soverign nature of God That allows men to beleive they have "limited" free will or choice. I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
To beleive that we can change Gods plan, is to set ourselves up as gods, this decidedly cannot be true, God is either in control, or the world is running in total chaos.
Peace
Chris R.
Craig:
--- Quote ---I would have to disagree for the reason stated earlier. If the thought is a sin then Jesus was a sinner because He: was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
JAM 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
--- End quote ---
Light,
Chris gave very good answers. I can tell you are a very thoughtful and truth seeking person. It is good you ask questions and continue to question until your mind is satisfied. I am like this myself. If you are at this place in your questions, then read, study and pray about what Ray says about free will, several times and then a few more. That was the concept that was the most difficult for me to get my head around, I think because that is when the beast truely begins to die, and he doesn't go easily.
You will be alone on this journey, as it take much time, effort, and prayer to understand the deeper things of God and it will be a journey without end in this lifetime. The forum should be a place to fellowship with like minded believers but don't expect to find allot of the answers you are seeking because even though many here are good people very few are teachers. This is between you and God.
Concerning Jesus and sin. Yes he was tempted, but the temptation didn't become lust. And lust is the root of sin.
Blessings!
Craig
hillsbororiver:
Usually lost in the "debate" about homosexuality is the lowered life expectancy of gay men, research has suggested it is about 46 to 50 years or as much as 20 years less than their straight or celebate brothers.
I am not one to preach guilt or damnation to anyone, I count myself very fortunate to being forgiven of the terrible things I have done in my life, I don't believe in offering my opinion or thoughts to a gay person unless they specifically ask me a question in regard to their lifestyle, otherwise I treat them as I would anyone else. However if a militant gay is promoting this as being "equal but just a different" lifestyle I do feel obligated to point out the error of that statement.
All of us are predisposed to some sort of sin(s) anger, thievery, lying, lustfullness of any type, violence, etc. some of us have a weakness for intoxicants/drugs that can hurt loved ones or bring about an early demise. Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?
A couple links on gay life expectancy, do your own research if you care to, this information is readily available if you look but it is too politically incorrect for the mass media to deal with;
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jun/05060606.html
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/bates060805.htm
Again, I do not believe it is ok to bash or condemn any brother or sister but with that being said I won't be a party to spreading or condoning a lie that can hurt or destroy people.
Joe
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