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Deliverance
Harryfeat:
Hello Joe,
I am not saying there is no relevance to an expected shorter life span for a single gay person. The truth is that single males no matter what sexual preference have a shorter life expectancy from studies supporting life tables used for insurance purposes. I would be more inclined to be less skeptical of the study you cited if it were performed by life insurance actuaries rather than a pro family man that might or might not have an agenda. The study kind of reminds me of those ads with clinical studies confirming that pills for breast and penis enlargment pills really work.
There is no doubt that lifestyle can seriously affect one's life expectancy. According to several sources on the internet, If you are a heavy drinker or smoker you can expect to reduce your life expectancy by fifteen or more years. If you are obese and don't exercise you also significantly reduce your life expectancy. Just look up the words "life expectancy" on your browser and see for yourself.
If you go to the following website you can also play the longevity game which shows the effects of some of these things: http://www.nmfn.com/tn/learnctr--lifeevents--longevity
I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.
feat
Lightseeker:
CHRIS
I know this is off topic so I'll try not to elaborate.
--- Quote ---I'm really not sure which scripture your speaking of that gives us "more" choices? We choose to do things every day, thousands of choices are made by each of us, None of these choices are "free" from cicumstances that cause us to do one thing or another.
--- End quote ---
I'm talking about all the scriptures which give us the choice to 'sin' or 'not sin'. I understand not being a 'Free moral agent' and that we truly are, at least partially, a product of our enviornment which we don't totally control. I'm just saying God is not the only influence HE has allowed to operate in our lives. What choice I make in every situation is dependent upon how much I have conformed to the mind of Christ IMO. God allows Satan (God's created tool IMO) to test us, but as in Job's case He never said what the Satan could do to Job. He only said how far he couldn't go. Which is consistant with scripture
1CO 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Is God tempting us here?...no! Is He giving us a choice we can't escape from because of no 'will' or no 'way'? I don't see that either.
So did God 'rob, kill, and destroy' those in the story of Job...or did Satan? I think Satan did. Did God force Satan to do what he did? I don't think so. So God isn't micromanaging every minute detail of creation making robots of all. But He is soverignly channeling all things in the direction He desires for us to go. That's just how I see it at this point in my walk. Not wanting to be controversial here or cause a problem. I'm not a homo phobe or a free will phobe. Whether I think I have, or don't have free will doesn't change anything for me/us in the grand scheme of things...does it?
I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. [Jer 10:23]
I totally agree it's not from within. It's from without...in the realm of influence where there is "the God of this world" and 'the God of this universe'. I can't change my course which is directed by choices made in the past...even though I'll end up at the same goal intended of God from the beginning. But I can control my response to those 'trials, testings' which will influence how God has to deal with me in the future...I believe. This controls total "chaos" but eliminates "total control" while never changing God's ultimate goal. This view supports Theism and refutes Deism.
JOH 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
No mention of 'but you don't have any choice in the matter as to whether you sin or not because God's totally controlling you'. Oh well enough of that here.
JOE
--- Quote ---Just because we may like to say we were born with this deficiency are we to ignore the sinfullness of it, or not pray to be delivered from it?
--- End quote ---
Amen and a point that is at issue here I think, for Harry's friends.
FEAT
--- Quote ---I don't know what relevance any of this has to do with the topic of the thread. Maybe we can all pray that we can be delivered from a lifestyle that shortens our lives and that will brings us closer to spiritual life in Christ.
--- End quote ---
Pray...yes. But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is). One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness. I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't. :'( But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO. God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture. And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too. At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.
Gotta go guys.
hillsbororiver:
Hi feat,
I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.
There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.
Since it has become politically correct to promote this lifestyle anyone who points to scripture or medical evidence to question the wisdom of this sociological change is in danger of being branded "homophobic" or a "bigot" with the more "enlightened" among us denying what is obvious, exchanging body fluids with multiple partners (gay or straight) & strangers is risky business. I do not want to get too graphic but any Doctor without political bias or an agenda will tell you the anus was not intended to be a vagina nor can it be converted into one, the health risks are plentiful and the immune system will be compromised. That is the physical aspect, the spiritual aspect is that we will not grow in His Spirit if we hold on to the lusts of the flesh, in any form or manner.
If one wants to believe that this is a healthy lifestyle (physically or spiritually) with no difference to a man/woman marriage nothing anyone says or writes is going to change their minds, but if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification.
We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.
Joe
Harryfeat:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker on July 02, 2006, 05:48:27 PM ---
But also be open to witnessing life into a death situation in this age (whatever it is). One of the complaints against reconcilliation is that we won't witness. I retort, "I witness when I feel led of the Spirit to do so"....OK, OK sometimes I disobey and don't. :'( But at least my witness is from the pure motive of a love relationship to God and not a mechanical churchianity motivation IMO. God is going to move through preaching the word...according to scripture. And if we're inclined not to preach then He must call upon someone else too. At least that's how I think of things today...might change tomorrow.
Gotta go guys.
--- End quote ---
By witnessing what exactly do you mean, do you mean preaching? Also I don 't understand what you mean by witnessing life into a death situation in this age. ??? ??? ??? ??? I am totally lost in understanding it.
Perhaps this should start another thread but it seems to fit somewhat here. The same sex couple that I know do not truly believe they are living in a sinful relationship. Are we supposed to preach to them that they are sinners and should get [for lack of a better term]"divorced"? They are as much a couple as my wife and I are. I don't see that as a viable alternative. At what point does witnessing, whatever that means to you, become judgemental and divisive to those who don't believe as you do?
feat
Harryfeat:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 02, 2006, 06:35:48 PM ---Hi feat,
I only cited 2 examples but did invite anyone who has an interest to do their own research as there is much material available, I remember reading years ago about homosexuals and IV drug users having about the same rates of infections, immune system deficiencies and life expectancy.
There are extreme positions by "pro family" to be sure, as there are with the "pro gay." I for one do not have the same faith in the Insurance Companies as being beacons of truth, they must consider the negative effects any stance that could be perceived as bigoted would have on their liability and/or their image, it is easier to simply raise the premiums on all people. I have seen how these Insurance Companies raise everyones Auto rates to cover uninsured, unlicensed drivers, careless drivers and raise the insurance rates for all Floridians to cover the losses they paid in the coastal regions. Their motivation is strictly bottom line.
We should seek the spiritual strength to resist sin in all forms and pray for those who have yet to have their eyes opened, to hate the sin but love the sinner. Our desire should not be to justify sin but to prayerfully seek deliverence from it.
Joe
--- End quote ---
Hi Joe,
Your point is well taken about insurance companies having the agenda of making money. We at least have some semblence of purpose on their part. Not always strictly monetary motivation but almost certainly part of their decision process. Usually their studies are better documented and scientifically prepared for fear of legal suit. As you say, however, taking anything at face value can be risky.
[I wasn't sure you realized that both the cites you made quoting a shorter life span seem to be about the same pro family man and his study, one just seems less supportive and more cautionary than the other.]
Aside from same sex, I don't even know what the gay lifestyle is other than stereotypes. The same sex couple I know are very conservative. As far as I know from observation and what they have told me, they don't do drugs, don't cheat on each other, believe in God, have read the bible, believe we have limited free will, one is waffling on the concept of universalism and the other believes in annilhilation of those who are not listed in the book[ per Revelations}. They both left religions/churches that told them they would be going to hell because God made them queer. The both believe and try to hold to Christ's commandments of love. They are both kind and helpful and seem to practice the concept of "doing unto others" . They believe that GWBush is unfit to lead, fundamentalists are far too influencial in matters of government, church and state should be separate to the extent that churches should pay taxes like every other business.
They seem to be fairly conventional conservatives [with a few exceptions of course]. I have suggested they visit BT and let me know what they think. It is too early for feedback.
Joe said "....if the question is raised honestly we should throw out the world's ever changing temporal answers and respond with what has been written for our admonition and edification......"
I assume by what has been written you mean scripture. If so, we are talking about translation error and interpretation by the carnal mind. If we believe what Christ said about the meaning of what he said being hidden from the masses then I see why we have so many religions and differences of opinion. I have been beaten down with bible verses about going to hell and that I am a sinner so many times that even when people ask my opinion, I qualify everything with its what I believe not necessarily what God will finally reveal to us all.
IF I stick to the doctrine of Christ and his commandments of love then i don't think I will go wrong. I actually feel like I am being judgemental when I tell someone that I think what they are doing is sinful, so I try not to.
Thanks for the additional input
feat
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