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[lauriellen]

hi everyone,
i am needing some insight/guidance from some of you who are more advanced
in their thinking than i am. i know i am just not understanding this right or looking at it with the wrong perspective....if Ray has taught on this subject,
please just point me to that.
i am having difficulty with this: 
was reading the thread a couple days ago that brought up the subject of
'repentance' and did the further reading and it brought up some questions
for me.  i know that God is absolutely sovereign and knows EVERYTHING
that will happen 'from the beginning.' i THINK i understand correctly that
when Ray talks about how God brings about the circumstances that will
make us do certain things, that God doesn't necessarily think to Himself
"I think I am going to make this guy molest that little girl', so he makes the
guy do it....it is more like God brings about the circumstances and He knows
what will happen....what we will choose voluntarily to do....He KNOWS
how our mind works. okay, so then we come  to the scripture that says:

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

okay, so at face value, this scripture 'sounds' like God was suprised by what they did, but as I understand, God wasn't taken by suprise, only that He
would never Himself think to do something so awful to people, right?

okay, this is where my thinking gets all messed up.....i just can't seem to reconcile in my mind how this abomination could not enter into Gods mind
with the fact of these other scriptures:

 
Jos 7:15  And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.

Gen 19:24  Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Gen 19:25  And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

now, i am NOT suggesting that these scriptures 'contradict' Jer 32.  I am just asking for someone to explain how all these scriptures work together in harmony, as i know they should.....right now, there is no harmony or peace when i think about these scriptures.  i know that the 'sum of Thy Word is Truth."  thats what i am looking for.
thanks in advance for any help,
God bless you all,
lauriellen

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi lauriellen

Not that I consider myself, as you say, "advanced" or anything. We all have our strenghts and weaknesses 

With God, there is ALWAYS a Benevolent, kind, caring, compassionate, generous Purpose and Plan that will end well and good for All. God is  not a
malevolent, wicked, spiteful mean and nasty Being that will leave things to end in a wicked way for anyone!

Arc

[mharrell08]

Email replies from Ray:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7163.msg56868.html#msg56868

Dear Reader: It is hardly possible to differentiate between heart and mind by using  Strong's Dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew languages, as he over-laps every definition with each word. Mind has to do more with intellect, intelligence, rational reasoning, analysis, creativity, etc.  The heart has more to do with emotions, feelings, compassion, love, lusts and desires.  We do not analytically and rationally decide that a good thing to do would be to go down to the beach and lust after women in bikinis.  Nor do we normally work our way through a difficult mathematical problem by figuring it out in our heart.  A person with a very good MIND, may nonetheless, have a very evil HEART. Can you see a difference?  I'm not saying that there is no overlap, but can you see a difference? Can you see the necessity for two words to describe two different forms of sentient behavior as opposed to being confined to only one word to describe these differences?  It's too big a subject for an email to go into all the many Scriptures to differentiate where the King James may or may not have it backwards. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6033.msg48753.html#msg48753

Dear Andy:

        Probably 90% of the tens of thousands of emails I have received have to do with presumed "contradictions."  This one, I must admit, on the surface does appear to be almost unanswerable--kinda like the one in Jeremiah where God said it never entered His "mind" that Israel would burn the children to Molech.  "Mind" should have been properly translated "heart" in this verse, which totally does away with the apparent contradiction.

        In your contradiction question, we read the following:

        Isa. 40:28, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is WEARY..."

        Isa. 43:24, "...but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast WEARIED Me with thine iniquities."

        In this case you can check the Hebrew, check different versions and translations, but it says what it says just as we have it in the King James.  So what is the answer?  Is this an unsolvable and true contradiction of Scripture?

        I have learned to look at words verys carefully, and to not assume that what is said is the same as what we we "think" is actually meant.

        Isa. 40:28 says of God that He , "neither [no, not] is weary."  If we had a verse that said that God "IS weary," then we would truly have a difficult contradiction to solve, but that is not what we have in these two verses.

        One says God is NOT weary, but another says God has BEEN wearied. Now we have a difference. Someone else is doing the "wearying." In the first, God tells us His lack of BEING weary, while in the second it is an action coming from sinful Israel. Sinful ISRAEL HAS "wearied God."  But here's the questions:  Does sinful Israel's act of "wearying," actually cause God TO BE weary?  I realize that all sounds confusing, but notice how simple it becomes if I substitute a different verb in place of the verb "wearied."

        Let me ask you this:  Is God Almighty "CURSED?" No, I doubt that anyone would believe that a mortal could actually "curse" God so that the result would be that God would BE CURSED.  Years ago a Christian Minister "cursed" our bible-truths.com site.  Did his "curse" actually cause our site to BE CURSED?  No, of course not, we continued to grow year after year after year after his "curse" on us. Well, God too was cursed by sinful Israel when we read a proper translation of Malachi 3:9...

        "With a curse YOU CURSE Me, and Me you are defrauding--the nation, all of it."

        Yes, the same sinful Israel "cursed" God Almighty, but...........BUT, did that cause God to actually and literally BE CURSED?  Has God been living under some deprivation as a result of Israel "cursing" Him?  God was a "cursed God," but suffered NO CURSE.  Israel's sinful "wearing" actually and literally did not cause God TO BE "weary."

        There is one other aspect to this kind of situation in Scripture.  God IS NOT A MAN, however, He often assumes the role of a man when speaking to mankind. He speaks of His arm, His hand, His plan, His purpose, etc., etc., as if He was a man. God REPENTS of things in Scripture (Gen. 6:6) as if He was a man, but we are told that"

        Num 23:19, " GOD IS NOT A MAN, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should REPENT."

        God be with you,

        Ray


Hope this helps,

Marques

[lauriellen]

so am i correct in thinking that it is not the physical act of humans being burned that is the abomination to God, but the purpose of the burning that
brings the abomination?

[Marky Mark]

As with all things of the carnal heart of man...give the evil doers of the world enough rope, and just like clock work, they will spiritually hang themselves every time . God knows this and throughout Scripture we can see it in action.


Peace...Mark

[Deborah-Leigh]

so am i correct in thinking that it is not the physical act of humans being burned that is the abomination to God, but the purpose of the burning that
brings the abomination?

Rev 19:12 …………the dead were judged (sentenced ) by what they had done [their whole WAY OF FEELING, and acting, their aims and endeavors] in accordance with what was recorded in the books. 13. …….the dead….were tried and their cases determined by what they had done [according to their MOTIVES, aims and works] Amplified Translation

Ray has written an excellent example of the stout heart of King Nebuchadnezzar that was cause to bring upon him the demise of His Kingdom. The fact that God gave him the command to pillage kill and destroy was not the reason for his chastisement.  It was the arrogance of Nebuchadnezzar and the assumption that he himself had been responsible for his wealth and success, that brought him down. Pride went before his fall.

Pride is the guide of free will.

Arc

[mharrell08]

so am i correct in thinking that it is not the physical act of humans being burned that is the abomination to God, but the purpose of the burning that brings the abomination?

Not sure where you got that from, but the entire ritual, from conception to acting out, is an abomination to the Lord.

The statement from the Lord that this pagan ritual 'never entered his mind' (which is better translated 'heart') means it was not a heartfelt desire. Similar to this pronouncement from the Lord:

Ezek 33:11  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

The Lord takes no pleasure in death but, as it is written, 'there is a time there for every purpose and for every work' (Ecc 3:17) under the heavens.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

It is as Marques expresses lauriellen.

God appointed a time to suffer great distress and loss to the King of Babylon. God also knew that by purging the King of his arrogance through the deep suffering God made him endure, the consequence is beautifully illustrated in the following Scripture that shows us the nature of our Great and Wise Loving God.

Dan 4:37  Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.

Arc

[lauriellen]

BINGO!        LIGHTBULB MOMENT!   

I got it! thank you SOOOO MUCH! . . . . .this has really been weighing on me.
just the way you worded it:

Not sure where you got that from, but the entire ritual, from conception to acting out, is an abomination to the Lord.

The statement from the Lord that this pagan ritual 'never entered his mind' (which is better translated 'heart') means it was not a heartfelt desire. Similar to this pronouncement from the Lord:

Ezek 33:11  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

The Lord takes no pleasure in death but, as it is written, 'there is a time there for every purpose and for every work' (Ecc 3:17) under the heavens.


Hope this helps,

Marques

really opened it up for me..........i feel like now i understand Gods heart
alittle better.....i just kept getting stuck on the physical act itself...i
know that the verse in jer 32 is always used as a proof that God never
intended an eternal hell, i just wanted to make sure i knew WHY this verse prooves it....
thanks again,
lauriellen

[mharrell08]

You're most welcome...all Glory to God