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Author Topic: God Knows All?  (Read 20743 times)

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claypot

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God Knows All?
« on: March 21, 2010, 10:43:16 AM »

Hi All, I'm very new here but have gained much from all your and Mr. Smith's writings. Is it proper to call him Ray?

Anyway to understand some things more I have a question right off the bat here.

I understand our choices are caused but does God know each exact detail of what I will do? If I decide to instantly grab a salt shaker and shake it over my left shoulder does God know I am going to do that and does He know exactly how many salt crystals will fall to the ground verses how many stick to my shirt?

This salt analogy may sound ridiculous but if we apply it to a rapist raping a young girl, does God know the exact details of what the rapist will do as He is the creator or controller of all circumstances that cause our decisions, correct?

I am in no way being argumentative here. I want to learn and from what I have read of Mr. Smith's writings I think I can learn more here. My questions may seem weird but if they are offensive in any way it is just because of my poor communicative skills.

Thanks,

cp
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 11:00:59 AM »

Hi All, I'm very new here but have gained much from all your and Mr. Smith's writings. Is it proper to call him Ray?

Anyway to understand some things more I have a question right off the bat here.

I understand our choices are caused but does God know each exact detail of what I will do? If I decide to instantly grab a salt shaker and shake it over my left shoulder does God know I am going to do that and does He know exactly how many salt crystals will fall to the ground verses how many stick to my shirt?

This salt analogy may sound ridiculous but if we apply it to a rapist raping a young girl, does God know the exact details of what the rapist will do as He is the creator or controller of all circumstances that cause our decisions, correct?

I am in no way being argumentative here. I want to learn and from what I have read of Mr. Smith's writings I think I can learn more here. My questions may seem weird but if they are offensive in any way it is just because of my poor communicative skills.

Thanks,

cp


Hello CP,

As the Lord states, even the very hairs on our head are numbered, so yes God knows all the details in our lives.

Luke 12:6-7  Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God? But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Matt 10:29-31  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.



Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html):

CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?

Even if we were to accept Mr. Robertson’s theory that God had nothing to do with this Christmas tsunami, we would still be forced to concede that “God allowed it.” That is, in fact, the terminology that is used in most discussions of this subject—Why did God “allow” it? Why does God “allow” this, that, and the other thing?

Allow, allow, allow. That is the mind-set of most discussions whether they are religious or secular—Why did God “allow” it? Surely no one doubts God’s ability to stop any or all such catastrophes if He so desired? A man in an Atlanta Court House murdered three people. Since God obviously did not stop it, why then did God “allow” it?   Would you really like to know why God “allowed” those murders and why He allowed the Christmas tsunami?

And not only why did He allow this tsunami, but all tsunamis, and typhoons, and hurricanes, and floods, and tornadoes, and violent thunderstorms, and rock slides and mud slides, and avalanches, and volcanoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires, and droughts, and famines, and diseases, wars and holocausts, and (not just the killing 3 people in Atlanta), but all deaths? Do you really want to know why God “allows” these things? Are you sure you are ready for God’s answer to this most profound mystery in all creation?

I am reminded of the film, “A Few Good Men.” In a dramatic court scene Tom Cruise demands of the witness: “I want the TRUTH!” To which Jack Nicholson shouts back: “You can’t HANDLE the TRUTH!!”

This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but they can’t handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole Truth: the whole counsel of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it. Often they killed the messengers who brought God’s message of Truth. That’s just how offensive the Truth of God is to the carnal mind. I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God’s Truth.

But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the Truth is not offensive. For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers used to say: “Can we talk?” Are your kids in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free will is not for the immature or faint of heart.

Okay then, back to our question: Why does God “allow” all of the pain, suffering, disasters, and even mass killing of the innocent to happen? Actually, the question is not even a legitimate question because God does not “allow” any of these disasters to happen. Here then is one of the greatest truths in all the world and of all Scripture:

God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!

If a person is able to prevent a crime (let’s say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn’t, he is no better than the one who commits the crime. So now the question is: “Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?

    “About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You’ll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!” (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).

No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.

Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?

Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?

You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!

And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions?   Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?

    The American Heritage College Dictionary:

    “ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”

    “permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.

Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?

Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation!   They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!

Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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lauriellen

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 11:31:42 AM »

Marqes,
these words of Ray are a "hard saying" for sure, but if we can only believe and except them for the truth that they are, there is such a peace & 'calm in the middle of the raging sea' waiting for us.  to me, this is what it truely means to  'enter Gods rest.'....hard to do sometimes, because our flesh wants to 'grab the wheel' of control....we just have to kick the 'beast' to the curb and except that God has the controls......
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claypot

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 11:41:31 AM »

Marq, That was excellent and your brief comment at the end helped more than you will know, or maybe you will know one 'day'.

I have discovered and am listening to LRS's free will video. It is good. If I were in the room with him I would ask this question.....

LRS (L Ray Smith) showed the verse in James about when we are drawn away by our lusts then we sin. LRS is saying it not of God that we sin but it is of our own lusts which I do see in operation in Eve before she ate of the tree.

My question is, who is in control or who or what creates the circumstances that form my lusts?

Am I correct is saying that it would be God Himself? As I gleaned from your words it is God who is subjecting us to this amazingly horrible amount of evil. God is actually creating the environment that form my lusts like Eve in the garden.

Scriputure says that God tempts no one yet am I correct in assuming God orchestrates events that cause temptation to come to us?

I will be reading and re-reading your previous post as I sense God is talking to me but the voice is so small I am only getting a bit of it now.

cp
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 11:55:04 AM »

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Does God know who He has appointed to be in the resurrection of damnation and who are to join Him in the Resurrection of life? Yes. God knows. God has foreknowledge of everyone and everything.

We have no power, authority, influence or ability to change one thing that God has appointed to us to endure, experience and to overcome. God has authored everything leaving nothing to chance, accident, mis-hap or whim.

I know it is not possible for the human mind that is educated in natural conditions of limited experiences, to understand what or who God is in Spirit and in Truth. It can only be God, who appoints anyone to know Him or receive His Spirit to understand or obey Him. We can do nothing of ourselves to promote or achieve anything that God does not appoint to us.

God is very generous that way. He works the works he appoints us to walk in and then He gives us the reward for His Work. Only a Great, Loving and Magnificent God could arrange such a wonderful thing for His Children.

Regarding you analogy about the rapist. God tells us to think on everything that is wholesome. I think God practices what He preaches and it is a delightful experience to  follow His Lead.

God does not take pleasure in death or evil or pain or suffering yet these are necessary for us to learn good from evil. God’s Plan and Purpose for our horrific and often tragic experiences are to bring us into conformity with His Spirit. Our trials and tribulations are for a beneficial result that will join us to Him in Life and in Love for God is Love.
You mention in your analogy, whether God knows how many salt grains stick and how many fall etc. God is not trivial and trivia is not how I think of God’s Genius and Spiritual qualities that far excel my/our own.
 
It is like this. There was a person in the year 3000….this is an analogy….Science, not Wisdom, had created a world of superlative excellence. So much so, that one person challenged God Himself saying that humankind was now as God. God asked for proof.

Okay, said humankind. You can make the rain, so can we, you can regulate the energy of the solar rays and so can we. You can make a baby and so can we. We can do everything You can do God so therefore we are GOD.
God said Okay. Let’s start again. Let us begin again. I shall create the universe and I shall create you Oh man. Now let Me see you do that.
So man said, SURE! We can do exactly the same. Just give me some dust and I’ll show You!

God replied…..OH NO….YOU OH man, YOU make your own dust…you get your own dust….See, you Oh man cannot even make one small particle of DUST!
We can focus on anything in between the dust and the Kingdom of God. We are told by God to seek first His Kingdom….That is a very important ability that only the Spirit of God can accomplish in any one of us. Everything is of God through the Word of God.

The process is shown in the Scriptures. First we are made subject to vanity. We are all created in the natural first before we are conformed into His Spirit by His Spirit. The weak heart is where and how all our evil lusts and wicked preferences are manifested. God strengthens our hearts with His Spirit and in this way we reach that “glorious liberty of the children of God”

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


Arc
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 12:53:38 PM by Arcturus »
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Joel

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2010, 12:08:43 PM »

Hi Claypot, Welcome!
Did God see me welcome you to this forum?
Of course He did, Seriously WELCOME, and I know you will find Gods answers here if you apply yourself.
If he dragged you here, who are you to resist God?
If we don't believe God knows everthing, down to the most minute detail such as the smallest atom particles. That Jesus didn't know before hand the suffering he was to endure,  down to the very last detail.
Then we ALL are calling God a liar, and my He have mercy on those that do so.
Nothing wrong with questioning God, He can handle it.
Does it matter what we BELIEVE? absolutely.

Joel


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claypot

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2010, 12:16:26 PM »

Hi Claypot, Welcome!
Did God see me welcome you to this forum?
Of course He did, Seriously WELCOME, and I know you will find Gods answers here if you apply yourself.
If he dragged you here, who are you to resist God?
If we don't believe God knows everthing, down to the most minute detail such as the smallest atom particles. That Jesus didn't know before hand the suffering he was to endure,  down to the very last detail.
Then we ALL are calling God a liar, and my He have mercy on those that do so.
Nothing wrong with questioning God, He can handle it.
Does it matter what we BELIEVE? absolutely.

Joel




Thanks Joel. I am learning so much right now I literally feel as if my head and heart may explode…..in a good way. You all are great. I never expected such good and just amazing responses and so fast. I am in awe! I have more questions or at least desire to be more specific in the questions I already asked and questions that have been generated within me by all the responses. Man, I love this! I do get burned out at times but currently God has me on a learning roll and I do love it! I’m going to respond to Arc now, thanks again, Joel.
cp
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mharrell08

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2010, 12:20:01 PM »

Marq, That was excellent and your brief comment at the end helped more than you will know, or maybe you will know one 'day'.

I have discovered and am listening to LRS's free will video. It is good. If I were in the room with him I would ask this question.....

LRS (L Ray Smith) showed the verse in James about when we are drawn away by our lusts then we sin. LRS is saying it not of God that we sin but it is of our own lusts which I do see in operation in Eve before she ate of the tree.

My question is, who is in control or who or what creates the circumstances that form my lusts?

Matt 15:18-20  Those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man...

Luke 6:45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


It is from our heart that we desire the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life [1 John 2:16]. It is God who creates us in this spiritual weak condition:

Rom 8:20  For the creature [creation; all mankind] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked
[Heb. 'exceedingly weak']: who can know it?


Am I correct is saying that it would be God Himself? As I gleaned from your words it is God who is subjecting us to this amazingly horrible amount of evil. God is actually creating the environment that form my lusts like Eve in the garden.

Scriputure says that God tempts no one yet am I correct in assuming God orchestrates events that cause temptation to come to us?

I will be reading and re-reading your previous post as I sense God is talking to me but the voice is so small I am only getting a bit of it now.

cp

James 1:13-14  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Yes, James explains in the very next verse regarding God not tempting any man to evil. Every man is drawn by his/her own lust, though God does send those who do tempt:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-D1 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm):

Am I saying that God Himself deceives people? No, I never came up with any such teaching - I READ IT IN THE BIBLE:

    "And there came forth a spirit [a lying spirit], and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a LYING spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He [the Lord] said, You shall persuade him, and prevail also, go forth, and DO SO. Now therefore, behold, the Lord [Who? 'the LORD'] has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and the Lord has spoken evil concerning you" (I Kings 22:22-23).

    "Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will entice him. And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and by a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and DO EVEN SO. Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all His prophets, and the Lord has spoken evil against you" (II Chron. 18:21-22).

But I though that "God cannot lie" (Titus 1:2)? He can't, but He does send those who DO LIE.

But I thought that "God tempts no man" (James 1:13)? He doesn't, but He sends those who DO TEMPT. (Matt. 4:1, I Cor. 7:5, I Thes. 3:5, Heb. 4:15).

Surely God does not desire for even one person to be deceived? Surely He DOES:

    "and for this cause GOD shall send them strong DELUSION [Gk: 'fraudulence, straying, deceit, delusion, error'] that they should BELIEVE A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).

Read that again a few times, as most of you either didn't get that verse, or you just flat out don't believe it should be a part of Scripture.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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claypot

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2010, 12:25:48 PM »

Before I reply to Arc, I want to comment to you Marq.

So am I correct in saying that God doesn't tempt anyone yet He creates the circumstances that cause us to be tempted?

I will leave it at this to keep it simple. Your words are hitting home!

cp
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Marky Mark

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2010, 12:26:19 PM »

Quote
My question is, who is in control or who or what creates the circumstances that form my lusts?

Hello and welcome claypot.

Just an added email response from Ray. Hope it helps also.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1700.0.html

Dear Charles:
You say:   "You wrote about free will and proved it scripturally to be a myth of which after doing the studying myself concluded that it is a myth."
 
Then you say:  "Do you think i would be hard on you if i were to use the word CONTRADICTING Mr Smith?"
 
Now don't get angry with me, Charles, but it is clearly YOU who are doing the "contradicting."  First you positively agree that the whole teaching of  "free will" really is a myth, but then you say that it doesn't fit YOUR ideas concerning the fairness of God, and therefore I CONTRADICT WITH THE TRUTH?  I though that you agreed and saw that we have no free will?  How then can that TRUTH contradict ANY OTHER TRUTH?
 
I am afraid that like hundreds of thousands before you, you have not read carefully. I fully cover all of this in my paper on free will.  How could you miss it?
 
How many times have I showed our readers Romans 9:18-23 where in Paul says people will ask why God finds fault with their sins since it is God Himself who is behind all things throught the intentions of His plan and purpose?
 
We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling because:  "For it is GOD which works IN YOU [not in the uncalled wicked of the world, but "you,'"--you Believers] both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 12:13).  Well what of the uncalled wicked then?  Does God not "WILL THEM TO DO SIN?"  No He doesn't:  "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God [as you have just suggested] for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPS HE ANY MAN:  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn way of  H-I-S  O-W-N LUST, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin...." (James 1:13-15).
 
God does NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN!!!  I have stated this over and over and over and over again, and yet, I get email after email suggesting that I teach that "GOD MAKES AND FORCE MEN TO SIN."  I have never taught or even though such a thing.  God made man SPIRITUALLY WEAK.  So weak that he cannot resist the pulls of his own carnal nature. Man volunteers to sin, God does not FORCE him to sin.  And it is not a sin on God's part for making man weak, because He has also a plan to MAKE HIM SPIRITUALLY STRONG, and with God the end ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. In judgment, God will RIGHT EVERY WRONG.  The "so-called" innocent children He had killed in wars and battles with be given back their life and more--they will eventually be given IMMORTALITY in the Family of God (more than sufficient compensation for a short and early death in this life).
 
God be with you,
Ray




Peace...Mark
 
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mharrell08

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2010, 12:27:41 PM »

Before I reply to Arc, I want to comment to you Marq.

So am I correct in saying that God doesn't tempt anyone yet He creates the circumstances that cause us to be tempted?

I will leave it at this to keep it simple. Your words are hitting home!

cp


Yes, God is the cause of any and all circumstances in each of our lives.
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claypot

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2010, 12:33:31 PM »

Am I also correct, at least as far as you understand, that it seems to be an absolute verses a relative thing going on here. Absolutely God tempts yet relatively He does not. I mean, take Eve. God creates 'her' weak, with lusts. Then He puts a tree in front of her and says don't eat and then He puts a subtle serpent in her life that clearly is more powerful than her.

To me this is God tempting Eve absolutely yet not relatively.

Do you understand what I am saying?

cp
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mharrell08

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2010, 12:41:08 PM »

Am I also correct, at least as far as you understand, that it seems to be an absolute verses a relative thing going on here. Absolutely God tempts yet relatively He does not. I mean, take Eve. God creates 'her' weak, with lusts. Then He puts a tree in front of her and says don't eat and then He puts a subtle serpent in her life that clearly is more powerful than her.

To me this is God tempting Eve absolutely yet not relatively.

Do you understand what I am saying?

cp


Yes, I understand what you are saying, but perhaps your wording is a bit off. Again, God does not tempt anyone (Eve, Adam, Jesus, You, Me, etc.).

God brings about the causes and circumstances but people are drawn by their 'own lusts'. God does not force anyone to sin but does create us in such a spiritually weak condition that we could not have done otherwise when temptation arises.

But no worries, you are a lot closer in understanding than most. Keep seeking


Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2010, 12:56:17 PM »

Hello claypot

You have some excellent answers to your question.

My original post was modified and lost the first half in posting before my connection went off line.

Here is the half that got lost.

Welcome to the Forum and thank you for your question! :D

Arc
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Kat

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2010, 01:20:01 PM »


Hi Claypot,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Here are a few more emails that might help in this discussion.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3570.0.html ------

 Dear Hugh:
    There are many things that God has created that are not a part of His "heart." Evil is not a part of God's heart. The death of the wicked is nothing something God cherishes in His heart. Sin is not something that God endorses, yet He created all the circumstances for its use.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3211.0.html ----

Why would got create Sin if He will eventually eraticate it?
    

    Dear Reader:
    Nowhere does it teach, and so neither do I, that God "created" sin.
    Sin is the result of spiritually weak humans being tested by the pulls
    and lusts of their flesh. God did, however, create spiritually weak humans.
    It is necessary to have a knowledge and experience of  "evil" in order to
    possess true character that is "good."


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ---

 I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it.  God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.

Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).

But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further?  God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.

Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage.  God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children.  Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?

God could stop all men from having sex with children.  But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.

All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little childrfen. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds.  And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins.  This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine.  I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.


http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#tempt ----------

God does many, many things through OTHER channels. There are no contradictions, we just need to always be completely honest and open with the Scriptures.  Let me give you an example that I am sure you will understand that will also clarify all the other apparent contradictions such as the forbidden tree in the Garden, and many others.

Are we all totally agreed that GOD DOES NOT LIE? Good!

"In hope of eternal life, which God, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).

Now, I Kings 22:22,

"And the Lord said unto him [a spirit], Wherewith? And he [the spirit] said, I will go forth, and I WILL BE A LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of all his prophets.  And He [GOD] said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: GO FORTH, AND DO SO"!!!

So God, Who does not, will not, cannot LIE, agreed to have this LYING SPIRIT go out and LIE!

I realize that many of these things are too high for many Christians to comprehend and accept, but God does operate in such ways, and God does right by doing so.  God never makes a mistake and God never sins. It was not a sin on God's part to make man so spiritually WEAK than he can't possibly live righteously and please God in his present carnal condition.

God did not directly entice Adam or Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, Satan did. But notice, Who planted the tree?  Where was it planted, in a far corner somewhere? Who made the tree LOOK good and desirable to make one wise?   Who knew that Satan would take the first opportunity to tempt them? Who had ALREADY PREPARED HIS SON AS A LAMB to be slaughtered for these sins even before they committed them? Well, yes, of course, it was GOD! God did NOT tempt Eve. Satan tempted Eve. Eve's own carnal nature tempted here.

God didn't need to even be present--although even unseen, God is always present. God had marvelous, good, and righteous, and unfathomable WISE purpose for creating things as He as.

It would be impossible to create this world, mankind, Satan, and the whole heavenly host, any better than God did it the first time! Can we not believe this?  This creation, this world, this generation of wicked and evil people, with all the terrorists and frightful things happening all around us is EXACTLY AS GOD PLANNED IT. What power in heaven or earth could possible THWART GOD'S ORIGINAL PLAN AND PURPOSE? God IS SOVEREIGN!!!

Just because we don't always understand things, does in no way ever diminish God's Sovereignty. God plainly tells us that He knows and sees and prophesies, THE BEGINNING AND THE END. Nothing has ever surprised God. God is a billion times smarter and wiser than most ever give Him credit.

I hope that helps your understanding a little better. I is a pleasure to discuss this matter with those who are sincerely interested in the truth.

God be with you!

God be with you,
Ray  

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claypot

  • Guest
Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2010, 01:58:01 PM »

Am I also correct, at least as far as you understand, that it seems to be an absolute verses a relative thing going on here. Absolutely God tempts yet relatively He does not. I mean, take Eve. God creates 'her' weak, with lusts. Then He puts a tree in front of her and says don't eat and then He puts a subtle serpent in her life that clearly is more powerful than her.

To me this is God tempting Eve absolutely yet not relatively.

Do you understand what I am saying?

cp


Yes, I understand what you are saying, but perhaps your wording is a bit off. Again, God does not tempt anyone (Eve, Adam, Jesus, You, Me, etc.).

God brings about the causes and circumstances but people are drawn by their 'own lusts'. God does not force anyone to sin but does create us in such a spiritually weak condition that we could not have done otherwise when temptation arises.

But no worries, you are a lot closer in understanding than most. Keep seeking


Marques
Not to belabor the point but because God brings about (causes) the circumstances that lead us to sin then I have to believe that, absolutely, it is actually He and no other that, as LRS puts it, is responsible. We are accountable. Now that’s another line that floors me but it makes sense in my spirit.

I liken it to me needing one of my kids to touch a hot stove. (God needed Eve to eat the fruit right?) But say I needed one of my kids to touch a hot stove. I might get a huge fan blowing towards the stove and then entice one of my kids to walk between the stove and fan. Now it would not be me that causes my child to touch the hot stove, it would be whatever enticed him and the fan but really it was ME, wasn’t it?

You say I am a lot closer. Where am I missing it?

Again, all of this is so good. I will be watching this closely as I am getting so much from you all. I just can’t say this enough. I am a bit busy now but will keep checking all day long and tomorrow and the next day and so on as I can.

cp
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2010, 02:46:51 PM »

Not to belabor the point but because God brings about (causes) the circumstances that lead us to sin then I have to believe that, absolutely, it is actually He and no other that, as LRS puts it, is responsible. We are accountable. Now that’s another line that floors me but it makes sense in my spirit.

Yes, God is ultimately responsible and mankind is accountable for the sin that he/she commits.

I liken it to me needing one of my kids to touch a hot stove. (God needed Eve to eat the fruit right?)

No, God did not push or needle Eve to sin...that was Satan.

Gen 3:14-15  The LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

2 Cor 11:3  I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Tim 2:13-14  For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression


God made Eve (and entire human race) too spiritually weak to resist sin.

But say I needed one of my kids to touch a hot stove. I might get a huge fan blowing towards the stove and then entice one of my kids to walk between the stove and fan. Now it would not be me that causes my child to touch the hot stove, it would be whatever enticed him and the fan but really it was ME, wasn’t it?

I really don't like 'what-if' scenarios when someone attempts to place themselves in the position of God or vice-versa. Paul explains our spiritual condition and WHO placed us in it, and for what purpose:

Rom 8:20-21  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God

To be 'subjected' to something is synonymous to being 'enslaved' to it. Our carnal nature is enslaved to sin, whereas the mind of Christ is subject to hope. Every human being is either a slave to sin & death or a slave to righteousness:

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

You say I am a lot closer. Where am I missing it?cp

You confess that you believe & understand that God is ultimately responsible but you don't seem to understand HOW we are accountable. But that is a lot further than most, if not all, of Christendom. That's what I meant by close.

I always feel when a member tends to ask the same question, again and again, it may be well for that person to do some more reading & studying. That is not meant to be a personal slight, but there's only so many ways the Truth can be said. After that, it is not an issue of a question being answered but rather does the questioner BELIEVE the answer given.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2010, 03:41:17 PM »

You may have heard the saying - the end justifies the means. It is God who is working ALL things for good for those who love Him. God means us to know, understand and enjoy Phileo love for Him. This cannot occur if we are impure for God is Holy. Impurity is in our flesh and carnality. God is not flesh. God is Spirit . God is not carnal or human.  Out of feeble, carnal, human weakness God is causing us to change into His Holy Spirit and Image that is untainted, pure, holy and mighty.
 
Your analogy, cp,  likens human need to God’s WILL.  The two do not have anything in common. Nothing human can be likened to God. A human may have Godly character and qualities that are the result of God’s Spirit and not anything that human flesh can produce.

 God is the author, designer and originator of the human race and all that exists in the seen and the unseen. God is pro-actively and divinely in the process of making Children for His Kingdom.

So God did not “need Eve to eat the fruit”. It was not the WILL of God that Eve ate the fruit. It was the PLAN that she would.

The application of God's Truth is not a lightbulb moment but a life time process even if we get the lightbulb. Ask Saul who became Paul! :D
 
Arc
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claypot

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2010, 04:21:34 PM »


So God did not “need Eve to eat the fruit”. It was not the WILL of God that Eve ate the fruit. It was the PLAN that she would.


Arc

Hey Arc, Do you think Eve needed to eat the fruit for Eve’s (humanities) sake? Are you sure about your saying it was not God’s WILL that Eve eat? I kind of see it as absolutely God’s will that she eat but I am open to discussion here.


And Marq, I do hear you about forever asking the same question but you all are like a drink of water to a very thirsty man.

cp
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2010, 04:26:48 PM »


It is not God's Will that we dis-obey Him cp.

Eve wanted to eat the fruit because she was spiritually weak. She saw the fruit and it appealed to every single weakness in her heart and she was motivated by that weakness to dis-obey God. That is NOT the Will of God that we should remain carnal, weak and automatic sinning machines. L Ray Smith

As East is different to West, so is God's Will different to God's Plan as is God's Responsibility different to human accountability.

As Ray has spent thousands of hours and years of prayer and meditation on these Truths that he shares, so too, should we not expect to grasp and be able to apply them the moment we read them. God provides both the DESIRE to understand and the ABILITY to comprehend successfully. This is not a hop, skip and jump achievement. It is a huge Blessing of Gods Generosity that we even begin to understand His Truth and His Spirit.  :)

Arc
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 04:32:53 PM by Arcturus »
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