> General Discussions
God Knows All?
claypot:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on March 21, 2010, 09:41:08 AM ---
--- Quote from: claypot on March 21, 2010, 09:33:31 AM ---Am I also correct, at least as far as you understand, that it seems to be an absolute verses a relative thing going on here. Absolutely God tempts yet relatively He does not. I mean, take Eve. God creates 'her' weak, with lusts. Then He puts a tree in front of her and says don't eat and then He puts a subtle serpent in her life that clearly is more powerful than her.
To me this is God tempting Eve absolutely yet not relatively.
Do you understand what I am saying?
cp
--- End quote ---
Yes, I understand what you are saying, but perhaps your wording is a bit off. Again, God does not tempt anyone (Eve, Adam, Jesus, You, Me, etc.).
God brings about the causes and circumstances but people are drawn by their 'own lusts'. God does not force anyone to sin but does create us in such a spiritually weak condition that we could not have done otherwise when temptation arises.
But no worries, you are a lot closer in understanding than most. Keep seeking
Marques
--- End quote ---
Not to belabor the point but because God brings about (causes) the circumstances that lead us to sin then I have to believe that, absolutely, it is actually He and no other that, as LRS puts it, is responsible. We are accountable. Now that’s another line that floors me but it makes sense in my spirit.
I liken it to me needing one of my kids to touch a hot stove. (God needed Eve to eat the fruit right?) But say I needed one of my kids to touch a hot stove. I might get a huge fan blowing towards the stove and then entice one of my kids to walk between the stove and fan. Now it would not be me that causes my child to touch the hot stove, it would be whatever enticed him and the fan but really it was ME, wasn’t it?
You say I am a lot closer. Where am I missing it?
Again, all of this is so good. I will be watching this closely as I am getting so much from you all. I just can’t say this enough. I am a bit busy now but will keep checking all day long and tomorrow and the next day and so on as I can.
cp
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: claypot on March 21, 2010, 10:58:01 AM ---Not to belabor the point but because God brings about (causes) the circumstances that lead us to sin then I have to believe that, absolutely, it is actually He and no other that, as LRS puts it, is responsible. We are accountable. Now that’s another line that floors me but it makes sense in my spirit.
--- End quote ---
Yes, God is ultimately responsible and mankind is accountable for the sin that he/she commits.
--- Quote from: claypot on March 21, 2010, 10:58:01 AM ---I liken it to me needing one of my kids to touch a hot stove. (God needed Eve to eat the fruit right?)
--- End quote ---
No, God did not push or needle Eve to sin...that was Satan.
Gen 3:14-15 The LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
2 Cor 11:3 I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
1 Tim 2:13-14 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression
God made Eve (and entire human race) too spiritually weak to resist sin.
--- Quote from: claypot on March 21, 2010, 10:58:01 AM ---But say I needed one of my kids to touch a hot stove. I might get a huge fan blowing towards the stove and then entice one of my kids to walk between the stove and fan. Now it would not be me that causes my child to touch the hot stove, it would be whatever enticed him and the fan but really it was ME, wasn’t it?
--- End quote ---
I really don't like 'what-if' scenarios when someone attempts to place themselves in the position of God or vice-versa. Paul explains our spiritual condition and WHO placed us in it, and for what purpose:
Rom 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God
To be 'subjected' to something is synonymous to being 'enslaved' to it. Our carnal nature is enslaved to sin, whereas the mind of Christ is subject to hope. Every human being is either a slave to sin & death or a slave to righteousness:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
--- Quote from: claypot on March 21, 2010, 10:58:01 AM ---You say I am a lot closer. Where am I missing it?cp
--- End quote ---
You confess that you believe & understand that God is ultimately responsible but you don't seem to understand HOW we are accountable. But that is a lot further than most, if not all, of Christendom. That's what I meant by close.
I always feel when a member tends to ask the same question, again and again, it may be well for that person to do some more reading & studying. That is not meant to be a personal slight, but there's only so many ways the Truth can be said. After that, it is not an issue of a question being answered but rather does the questioner BELIEVE the answer given.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Deborah-Leigh:
You may have heard the saying - the end justifies the means. It is God who is working ALL things for good for those who love Him. God means us to know, understand and enjoy Phileo love for Him. This cannot occur if we are impure for God is Holy. Impurity is in our flesh and carnality. God is not flesh. God is Spirit . God is not carnal or human. Out of feeble, carnal, human weakness God is causing us to change into His Holy Spirit and Image that is untainted, pure, holy and mighty.
Your analogy, cp, likens human need to God’s WILL. The two do not have anything in common. Nothing human can be likened to God. A human may have Godly character and qualities that are the result of God’s Spirit and not anything that human flesh can produce.
God is the author, designer and originator of the human race and all that exists in the seen and the unseen. God is pro-actively and divinely in the process of making Children for His Kingdom.
So God did not “need Eve to eat the fruit”. It was not the WILL of God that Eve ate the fruit. It was the PLAN that she would.
The application of God's Truth is not a lightbulb moment but a life time process even if we get the lightbulb. Ask Saul who became Paul! :D
Arc
claypot:
--- Quote from: Arcturus on March 21, 2010, 12:41:17 PM ---
So God did not “need Eve to eat the fruit”. It was not the WILL of God that Eve ate the fruit. It was the PLAN that she would.
Arc
--- End quote ---
Hey Arc, Do you think Eve needed to eat the fruit for Eve’s (humanities) sake? Are you sure about your saying it was not God’s WILL that Eve eat? I kind of see it as absolutely God’s will that she eat but I am open to discussion here.
And Marq, I do hear you about forever asking the same question but you all are like a drink of water to a very thirsty man.
cp
Deborah-Leigh:
It is not God's Will that we dis-obey Him cp.
Eve wanted to eat the fruit because she was spiritually weak. She saw the fruit and it appealed to every single weakness in her heart and she was motivated by that weakness to dis-obey God. That is NOT the Will of God that we should remain carnal, weak and automatic sinning machines. L Ray Smith
As East is different to West, so is God's Will different to God's Plan as is God's Responsibility different to human accountability.
As Ray has spent thousands of hours and years of prayer and meditation on these Truths that he shares, so too, should we not expect to grasp and be able to apply them the moment we read them. God provides both the DESIRE to understand and the ABILITY to comprehend successfully. This is not a hop, skip and jump achievement. It is a huge Blessing of Gods Generosity that we even begin to understand His Truth and His Spirit. :)
Arc
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