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God Knows All?
Kat:
Hi Claypot, matrix is a pretty good way to explain it.
matrix 1 : something within or from which something else originates, develops, or takes form.
Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---What I am learning from literally 30 years of debating and searching out and eating Scripture like a madman is that until God so works in and on a person to the point where his or her foundation changes then trying to use Scripture to make another see what I see is futile.
--- End quote ---
Sure has a familiar ring to it. ;)
Acts 9
1 But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the chief priest
2 and asked of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that, if he should find any of the way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 But as he was going, it came to pass that he drew near to Damascus, and suddenly there flashed around him a light from heaven;
4 and having fallen to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul,why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said: Who art thou, Lord? And he said: I am Jesus whom thou persecuteth!
6 But rise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Peace...Mark
claypot:
That's a good comparison Kat.
cp
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---I hear ya Arc. I use the terms absolute and relative to describe what you seem to me to be describing.
--- End quote ---
Yes, you’ve got it! 8)
My thinking is more to the Absolute than to the Relative.
--- Quote --- If you agree, I think we are on the same page.
--- End quote ---
It is actually quite apparent when someone is railing AGAINST giving up the idol of free will. What is not so readily discernable, is the extent that this idol has been demolished and the Truth instilled in its place.
The APPLICATION of the Truths we have been blessed to receive, is a process that is not acquired in the first reading. It is a process requiring daily attention and spiritual exercise. This is another reason this Forum is such a valuable place for believers of like mind. We are all different and in our diverse understanding of a truth, we can help each other come to grips with the Truth and be able to flow with it having it integrated into our souls as part of our being.
As you would comprehend, this ability is a gift from God.
--- Quote ---You seem like one ‘blessed by God’ person, I’m glad you’re taking the time with me to help out.
--- End quote ---
It takes one to know one! Our time is not our own.
--- Quote ---It’s very refreshing to know all is of God. I talked with a few friends that came over to my house yesterday. We concluded that it is the foundation that people have that needs changing. I got some of this from Ray’s words about how he doesn’t even know of more than a few of his critics that his arguments have caused a big turn around in their lives.
--- End quote ---
That is such a profound insight claypot. Even the Scriptures tell us to beware of how we listen or how we believe.
]
I know that part of my experience has been to digest heresy along with half truths and false teachings that require an entire makeover both mentally, spiritually, and socially.
Change or belief is not an intellectual agreement. It is a living contract to obedience through the Spirit of God. God gives both the desire and the ability to achieve His Will for us and then He gives us the reward for His Work. We have a Great and Generous God.
--- Quote ---Here is what I mean. If your foundation is Calvanism then you will make all of Scripture line up with that and of course if you believe most will burn in hell forever (like Calvanists) and that only a relatively few will go to Heaven then you will filter all of Scripture through that filter so all ends up saying to you exactly what you want it to say.
--- End quote ---
It is even more subtle than that claypot. What we believe reflects the weakness or the strength of our heart. Out of the weakness of our heart, comes all forms of evil and out of the strength of our heart we are made to conform into the Godly image of our Lord.
--- Quote ---Now, I believe this is from God because as I was saying this I got convicted and said out loud to my friends that that is exactly what I do. At one time I believed most would burn forever but somehow my base changed about 15 years ago. Why did it change? Why could I do a complete foundation change and many I have talked to now for years cannot? Of course we know it is God, all God.
--- End quote ---
YES!
--- Quote ---Anyway, my base changed. I started to filter all of Scripture through the foundation or filter that says God wants something and what God wants, God will get. So simple. It is amazing the lengths people go to to distort Scripture to get it through their filter but again they think I am doing the same to get Scripture through my filter so we are at a stalemate.
--- End quote ---
There is no game there. We have to learn we are few not many. We have been seeing recently just how difficult it is for us who have been blessed to learn the Truth. I personally have had my own siblings turn against me, reject me and abandon me. It is not easy yet the change in the foundation to one of a worldly family to a Kingdom Family is certainly with its merits that far exceed the pain of being circumcised in the heart.
--- Quote ---What I am learning from literally 30 years of debating and searching out and eating Scripture like a madman is that until God so works in and on a person to the point where his or her foundation changes then trying to use Scripture to make another see what I see is futile.
Ray uses the analogy that even if we shine a huge light into a blind persons eyes, they will still be blind! I have seen that myself. I showed a Babylonian that the Scriptures do not know anything of HELL. They still did not see it!
--- End quote ---
;D :D ;D
I guess we all have to shine that light into blind eyes to find out by personal experience that blind eyes are not going to open if we shine light into them. :) Only by the Spirit of God, can anyone be blessed to receive knowledge of God.
--- Quote ---What really floors me is when I put forth the filters to others and explain things a bit, what floors me is how they don’t even want the idea that God will save all to be true or at least they never admit it.
--- End quote ---
Right. You are going against an idol of the heart. God has to strengthen the heart and smash the idol. If we tinker around with weak hearts and mammoth idols, they would stone us to death if they could. :D
--- Quote ---I say to them that they have to at least admit the idea that God will save all has some degree of legitimacy and they will often say that it kind of does.
--- End quote ---
It is a hollow victory claypot. Ray also has quoted that a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.
Debate is futile and then, what is the motive to debate anyway? We are not Religious Hobbyists. L Ray Smith….one who wants to prove himself right and others wrong.
--- Quote ---For them to go even this far is a miracle. But then I ask them to just try to filter all of what they believe and all of Scripture through the filter in their brain and heart that says God wants all saved and God will get what He wants and then I give them the verses that state exactly what God wants and how He always gets what He wants and then they usually totally back out at that point. Just can’t do it.
--- End quote ---
Yes. I have been there. Have you ever seen the glazed over eyes? Well I don’t go there anymore. No point….
--- Quote ---Anyway, I am blessed to have about 6 people in the last 15 years or so come to some acceptance and understanding of what I believe is true. Only 6 but those 6 are blessings beyond imagination.
--- End quote ---
That is almost half a dozen more than I have! Just kidding! I have one friend who has a basic acceptance of the fact that God will save all. The Free Will understanding is not settled into the main frame of her beliefs yet.
From this experience, I find that there are varying degrees of acceptance and understanding.
As Ray points out, so too is repentance. We repent incrementally.
--- Quote ---This is getting way too long so I’ll quit.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for your thoughts, testimony and comments.
Arc
claypot:
--- Quote ---It is even more subtle than that claypot. What we believe reflects the weakness or the strength of our heart. Out of the weakness of our heart, comes all forms of evil and out of the strength of our heart we are made to conform into the Godly image of our Lord.
--- End quote ---
That is so good Arc. Adam and Eve (us) created with weak hearts. Would you say they were created with natural hearts? How about carnal?
--- Quote ---Ray uses the analogy that even if we shine a huge light into a blind persons eyes, they will still be blind! I have seen that myself. I showed a Babylonian that the Scriptures do not know anything of HELL. They still did not see it!
--- End quote ---
Please describe a Babylonian. I am serious. I like the light analogy you and Ray give.
--- Quote ---Debate is futile and then, what is the motive to debate anyway? We are not Religious Hobbyists. L Ray Smith….one who wants to prove himself right and others wrong.
--- End quote ---
I agree that if the motive for debate is wrong then debate is wrong but if the motive is pure then………………. I love a good honest, uplifting debate. It’s hard to control the emotions sometimes but what’s wrong with a little heat? I see Ray use it and of course I see that Jesus used it.
--- Quote ---That is almost half a dozen more than I have! Just kidding! I have one friend who has a basic acceptance of the fact that God will save all. The Free Will understanding is not settled into the main frame of her beliefs yet.
--- End quote ---
I have to believe you have many spiritual brothers and sisters. I have to believe people are helped in the process of conversion just by being in your presence, Arc! I mean it, these are not flattering words primarily.
cp
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