God Knows All?

[mharrell08]

And Marq, I do hear you about forever asking the same question but you all are like a drink of water to a very thirsty man.

cp

It's no problem CP, but remember...even if a man is very thirsty, too much water can cause him to choke.

If you select the 'Search' option, near the top of the forum page, you can do a search on 'accountable' and 'responsible'. We have had many discussions on this subject as well as many references from Ray's teachings (bible studies, conference transcripts, etc.).

Keep seeking,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Claypot,

Here is another email, I have put in bold a section for you to notice.


http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm ----------------

[Ray replies]

Well of course we are getting into a mature subject here, and I certainly would not expect Sunday School children to understand it, it does take some spiritual maturity.

God ABSOLUTELY has raised up people for the EXPRESS PURPOSE OF SINNING so that God could show His power in the earth by simply CONTRAST. See Rom. Chapter nine. (I notice that you are not one to be burdened by quoting Scriptures to back up your statement). Pharaoh was raised up for the EXPRESS purpose of GOING AGAINST God's will and SINNING so that God could then DESTROY HIM. Read it. Paul plainly says so. Stop using human arguments and reasoning. If you can't show me by the Scriptures, then you can't show me.

God planted the true of the knowledge of good and evil, not Satan. And God planted it right in the midst of the Garden where Adam and Eve would surely see it. God watched as Satan maneuvered his way to Eve so as to deceive her. God watched the whole thing! Stop believing that God is surprised or shocked by the actions of His creatures--He is NOT!   Besides, the tree contained the knowledge of  GOOD! Or did you never notice that? It was GOOD that they ate of the tree. It was GOOD that they disobeyed God. God KNEW THAT THEY WOULD SIN AND DISOBEY FROM LONG BEFORE HE EVER CREATED THEM.

How stupid do you think God is?  It is blasphemy the way people talk about God and give Him no more reasoning powers or abilities than sinful men. It is a SHAME. God knew exactly what HE was doing and He knew exactly everything that Adam and Eve WOULD DO. He is GOD. He knows ALL. Must I quote you all these simple Scriptures that most Sunday School children already know?

The Lamb of God was "slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD," the Scriptures tell us. Not from the "sin of Eve."  God made provision for the salvation of Adam and Eve BEFORE HE EVER CREATED THEM--that is Scripture! That is not man's theories!  I don't have time or space to explain the whole plan of salvation to you in one e-mail. Read ALL of my letters to Kennedy and Hagee, then write me if you have a question.

One last thought for you. God DID create men spiritually weak so that they cannot resist sin. "ALL have sinned..."It obviously IS God's will that for a time we go AGAINST His will. But. . . BUT, NO ONE EVER goes against God's "INTENTION."  There is a giant difference. Paul's detractors ask in Roman's nine, "For who has gone against God's INTENTION?" And the answer is, absolutely NO ONE. It could not even BE God's will that all be saved, unless first ALL ARE LOST!

If only theologians could come to understand that God is not running a damage control center from His throne of the universe. God is NOT picking up the pieces. He is not trying to get things back to being as good as they once were. He is not trying to figure out how to outsmart Satan. He is not falling behind, numerically, as far as how many will be saved and how many will be lost. God is far smarter and wiser than the stupid men who come up with these insane and blasphemous theories and doctrines.

God has a PLAN. (Wow, now there's a revelation for theologians). And God is working out that plan to perfection on a perfect schedule, and He will loose NOTHING! Paul tells us in Rom. 11:36 that ALL is out of God and THROUGH God and FOR God. God is creating man in His OWN IMAGE. It is a PROCESS. That process is on perfect schedule. It WILL be successful. Christ IS the saviour of the world and therefore, He WILL SAVE THE WORLD. How can you be a minister of the gospel and doubt God's ability to save all of His children? That's insane.

Anyway, I gotta go, I have many more e-mails to answer.

May God guide you into His perfect will.

Sincerely,

Ray

[claypot]

It is not God's Will that we dis-obey Him cp.

Eve wanted to eat the fruit because she was spiritually weak. She saw the fruit and it appealed to every single weakness in her heart and she was motivated by that weakness to dis-obey God. That is NOT the Will of God that we should remain carnal, weak and automatic sinning machines. L Ray Smith

As East is different to West, so is God's Will different to God's Plan as is God's Responsibility different to human accountability.

As Ray has spent thousands of hours and years of prayer and meditation on these Truths that he shares, so too, should we not expect to grasp and be able to apply them the moment we read them. God provides both the DESIRE to understand and the ABILITY to comprehend successfully. This is not a hop, skip and jump achievement. It is a huge Blessing of Gods Generosity that we even begin to understand His Truth and His Spirit. 

Arc

I'm 52 Arc and I have spent almost exactly 30 years searching out the things of God. My desire has only grown which to me is a miracle of God within me. The words on this forum from you all and Ray's writings have been very refreshing.

Now as to not being God's will that we disobey Him I kind of agree with what Ray wrote........

"One last thought for you. God DID create men spiritually weak so that they cannot resist sin. "ALL have sinned..."It obviously IS God's will that for a time we go AGAINST His will."

I can't get the bold and whatever to work so I put Ray's words in italics.

cp

[claypot]

Hey Kat and Marq, Thanks for all the links and tips. Kat On Ray's site, I just finished reading this last one you gave me and it is very good and one I need to ponder afresh soon. I am working my way through all of his writings . They are words that need to be read over and over and over. I am posting here and will get involved in other threads as I get time and through interacting I know I will gain. I hope God uses me to give from time to time too but I am grateful for patient brothers and sisters who give of their abundance!

cp

[Kat]

Hi Claypot,

It is a lot to take in and wrap your mind around. But I think you are doing the right thing to "read over and over and over," because it will sink in a little more every time. So don't try to rush things, just take things as they come. We are here to discuss things while we are learning and to encourage one another, glad you are with us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mharrell08]

Hey Kat and Marq, Thanks for all the links and tips.

You're welcome, CP

Hi Claypot,

It is a lot to take in and wrap your mind around. But I think you are doing the right thing to "read over and over and over," because it will sink in a little more every time. So don't try to rush things, just take things as they come. We are here to discuss things while we are learning and to encourage one another, glad you are with us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Ditto for what Kat posted above. I think I read from the website for over a year before joining the forum. Everything taught by Ray was so much and so new.


Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

This is a valuable opportunity to exercise what we understand to be the Will of God.  

There is a difference between referring to either the noun or the verb when we refer to God's Will.
As a noun, God's will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. LOF Installment XV – Part A

God's Plan is that humankind will resist His will until such time as His Goal, God's Ultimate Will, is achieved.

No one will be against God's Ultimate Will but all are against His Will until the Goal is reached.

So cp, when I stated that I do not believe that it is God's Will for Eve to go against Him, what Will was I referring to? The Noun or the Verb?

Arc

[claypot]

This is a valuable opportunity to exercise what we understand to be the Will of God. 

There is a difference between referring to either the noun or the verb when we refer to God's Will.
As a noun, God's will is virtually synonymous with His GOAL. LOF Installment XV – Part A

God's Plan is that humankind will resist His will until such time as His Goal, God's Ultimate Will, is achieved.

No one will be against God's Ultimate Will but all are against His Will until the Goal is reached.

So cp, when I stated that I do not believe that it is God's Will for Eve to go against Him, what Will was I referring to? The Noun or the Verb?

Arc

I hear ya Arc. I use the terms absolute and relative to describe what you seem to me to be describing. If you agree, I think we are on the same page. You seem like one 'blessed by God' person, I'm glad you're taking the time with me to help out.

It's very refreshing to know all is of God. I talked with a few friends that came over to my house yesterday. We concluded that it is the foundation that people have that needs changing. I got some of this from Ray's words about how he doesn't even know of more than a few of his critics that his arguments have caused a big turn around in their lives.

Here is what I mean. If your foundation is Calvanism then you will make all of Scripture line up with that and of course if you believe most will burn in hell forever (like Calvanists) and that only a relatively few will go to Heaven then you will filter all of Scripture through that filter so all ends up saying to you exactly what you want it to say.

Now, I believe this is from God because as I was saying this I got convicted and said out loud to my friends that that is exactly what I do. At one time I believed most would burn forever but somehow my base changed about 15 years ago. Why did it change? Why could I do a complete foundation change and many I have talked to now for years cannot? Of course we know it is God, all God.

Anyway, my base changed. I started to filter all of Scripture through the foundation or filter that says God wants something and what God wants, God will get. So simple. It is amazing the lengths people go to to distort Scripture to get it through their filter but again they think I am doing the same to get Scripture through my filter so we are at a stalemate.

What I am learning from literally 30 years of debating and searching out and eating Scripture like a madman is that until God so works in and on a person to the point where his or her foundation changes then trying to use Scripture to make another see what I see is futile.

What really floors me is when I put forth the filters to others and explain things a bit, what floors me is how they don't even want the idea that God will save all to be true or at least they never admit it.

I say to them that they have to at least admit the idea that God will save all has some degree of legitimacy and they will often say that it kind of does. For them to go even this far is a miracle. But then I ask them to just try to filter all of what they believe and all of Scripture through the filter in their brain and heart that says God wants all saved and God will get what He wants and then I give them the verses that state exactly what God wants and how He always gets what He wants and then they usually totally back out at that point. Just can't do it.

Anyway, I am blessed to have about 6 people in the last 15 years or so come to some acceptance and understanding of what I believe is true. Only 6 but those 6 are blessings beyond imagination.

This is getting way too long so I'll quit.

You all are great. I will continue reading with you all.

cp

[Kat]

Hi Ricky,

Jesus does stop SOME crime and SOME evil from taking place or happening. What  crimes and what evils does He stop.

Understand that everything that happens is in the plan of God, even when a crime is taking place and someone steps in to 'stop' it, that was already determined to happen that way.

The complexity of God's creation and the events that happen in this world are in a very complicated interconnected course, but happen the only way that is possible according to His plan. The sovereignty of God is total and everything is just as He ordained it to be.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[claypot]

Hi Ricky,

Jesus does stop SOME crime and SOME evil from taking place or happening. What  crimes and what evils does He stop.

Understand that everything that happens is in the plan of God, even when a crime is taking place and someone steps in to 'stop' it, that was already determined to happen that way.

The complexity of God's creation and the events that happen in this world are in a very complicated interconnected course, but happen the only way that is possible according to His plan. The sovereignty of God is total and everything is just as He ordained it to be.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

It's a matrix.

cp

[Kat]

Hi Claypot, matrix is a pretty good way to explain it.

matrix  1 : something within or from which something else originates, develops, or takes form.

Acts 17:28  For in Him we live and move and have our being, as also certain of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

What I am learning from literally 30 years of debating and searching out and eating Scripture like a madman is that until God so works in and on a person to the point where his or her foundation changes then trying to use Scripture to make another see what I see is futile.

Sure has a familiar ring to it.

Acts 9
1 But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went to the chief priest

2 and asked of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that, if he should find any of the way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 But as he was going, it came to pass that he drew near to Damascus, and suddenly there flashed around him a light from heaven;

4 and having fallen to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him: Saul, Saul,why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said: Who art thou, Lord? And he said: I am Jesus whom thou persecuteth!

6 But rise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.



Peace...Mark

[claypot]

That's a good comparison Kat.

cp

[Deborah-Leigh]

I hear ya Arc. I use the terms absolute and relative to describe what you seem to me to be describing.

Yes, you've got it!  

My thinking is more to the Absolute than to the Relative.

If you agree, I think we are on the same page.

It is actually quite apparent when someone is railing AGAINST giving up the idol of free will. What is not so readily discernable, is the extent that this idol has been demolished and the Truth instilled in its place.

The APPLICATION of the Truths we have been blessed to receive, is a process that is not acquired in the first reading. It is a process requiring daily attention and spiritual exercise. This is another reason this Forum is such a valuable place for believers of like mind. We are all different and in our diverse understanding of a truth, we can help each other come to grips with the Truth and be able to flow with it having it integrated into our souls as part of our being.

As you would comprehend, this ability is a gift from God.

You seem like one 'blessed by God' person, I'm glad you're taking the time with me to help out.

It takes one to know one! Our time is not our own.

It's very refreshing to know all is of God. I talked with a few friends that came over to my house yesterday. We concluded that it is the foundation that people have that needs changing. I got some of this from Ray's words about how he doesn't even know of more than a few of his critics that his arguments have caused a big turn around in their lives.

That is such a profound insight claypot. Even the Scriptures tell us to beware of how we listen or how we believe.
]
I know that part of my experience has been to digest heresy along with half truths and false teachings that require an entire makeover both mentally, spiritually, and socially.

Change or belief is not an intellectual agreement. It is a living contract to obedience through the Spirit of God. God gives both the desire and the ability to achieve His Will for us and then He gives us the reward for His Work. We have a Great and Generous God.

Here is what I mean. If your foundation is Calvanism then you will make all of Scripture line up with that and of course if you believe most will burn in hell forever (like Calvanists) and that only a relatively few will go to Heaven then you will filter all of Scripture through that filter so all ends up saying to you exactly what you want it to say.

It is even more subtle than that claypot. What we believe reflects the weakness or the strength of our heart. Out of the weakness of our heart, comes all forms of evil and out of the strength of our heart we are made to conform into the Godly image of our Lord.

Now, I believe this is from God because as I was saying this I got convicted and said out loud to my friends that that is exactly what I do. At one time I believed most would burn forever but somehow my base changed about 15 years ago. Why did it change? Why could I do a complete foundation change and many I have talked to now for years cannot? Of course we know it is God, all God.

YES!

Anyway, my base changed. I started to filter all of Scripture through the foundation or filter that says God wants something and what God wants, God will get. So simple. It is amazing the lengths people go to to distort Scripture to get it through their filter but again they think I am doing the same to get Scripture through my filter so we are at a stalemate.

There is no game there. We have to learn we are few not many. We have been seeing recently just how difficult it is for us who have been blessed to learn the Truth. I personally have had my own siblings turn against me, reject me and abandon me. It is not easy yet the change in the foundation to one of a worldly family to a Kingdom Family is certainly with its merits that far exceed the pain of being circumcised in the heart.

What I am learning from literally 30 years of debating and searching out and eating Scripture like a madman is that until God so works in and on a person to the point where his or her foundation changes then trying to use Scripture to make another see what I see is futile.
Ray uses the analogy that even if we shine a huge light into a blind persons eyes, they will still be blind! I have seen that myself. I showed a Babylonian that the Scriptures do not know anything of HELL. They still did not see it!

I guess we all have to shine that light into blind eyes to find out by personal experience  that blind eyes are not going to open if we shine light into them.   Only by the Spirit of God, can anyone be blessed to receive knowledge of God.

What really floors me is when I put forth the filters to others and explain things a bit, what floors me is how they don't even want the idea that God will save all to be true or at least they never admit it.

Right. You are going against an idol of the heart. God has to strengthen the heart and smash the idol. If we tinker around with weak hearts and mammoth idols, they would stone us to death if they could.

I say to them that they have to at least admit the idea that God will save all has some degree of legitimacy and they will often say that it kind of does.

It is a hollow victory claypot. Ray also has quoted that a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still.

Debate is futile and then, what is the motive to debate anyway? We are not Religious Hobbyists. L Ray Smith....one who wants to prove himself right and others wrong.

For them to go even this far is a miracle. But then I ask them to just try to filter all of what they believe and all of Scripture through the filter in their brain and heart that says God wants all saved and God will get what He wants and then I give them the verses that state exactly what God wants and how He always gets what He wants and then they usually totally back out at that point. Just can't do it.

Yes. I have been there. Have you ever seen the glazed over eyes? Well I don't go there anymore. No point....

Anyway, I am blessed to have about 6 people in the last 15 years or so come to some acceptance and understanding of what I believe is true. Only 6 but those 6 are blessings beyond imagination.

That is almost half a dozen more than I have! Just kidding! I have one friend who has a basic acceptance of the fact that God will save all. The Free Will understanding is not settled into the main frame of her beliefs yet.

From this experience, I find that there are varying degrees of acceptance and understanding.

As Ray points out, so too is repentance. We repent incrementally.

This is getting way too long so I'll quit.

Thanks for your thoughts, testimony and comments.

Arc

[claypot]

It is even more subtle than that claypot. What we believe reflects the weakness or the strength of our heart. Out of the weakness of our heart, comes all forms of evil and out of the strength of our heart we are made to conform into the Godly image of our Lord.

That is so good Arc. Adam and Eve (us) created with weak hearts. Would you say they were created with natural hearts? How about carnal?

Ray uses the analogy that even if we shine a huge light into a blind persons eyes, they will still be blind! I have seen that myself. I showed a Babylonian that the Scriptures do not know anything of HELL. They still did not see it!

Please describe a Babylonian. I am serious. I like the light analogy you and Ray give.

Debate is futile and then, what is the motive to debate anyway? We are not Religious Hobbyists. L Ray Smith....one who wants to prove himself right and others wrong.

I agree that if the motive for debate is wrong then debate is wrong but if the motive is pure then................... I love a good honest, uplifting debate. It's hard to control the emotions sometimes but what's wrong with a little heat? I see Ray use it and of course I see that Jesus used it.

That is almost half a dozen more than I have! Just kidding! I have one friend who has a basic acceptance of the fact that God will save all. The Free Will understanding is not settled into the main frame of her beliefs yet.

I have to believe you have many spiritual brothers and sisters. I have to believe people are helped in the process of conversion just by being in your presence, Arc! I mean it, these are not flattering words primarily.

cp

[Deborah-Leigh]

Adam and Eve (us) created with weak hearts. Would you say they were created with natural hearts? How about carnal?

Yes. That is also in line with what Ray has shared and encourages us to believe, as the Scriptures declare:

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Were Adam and Eve Spiritual and in the Image of God? NO.

1Co 15:44  ............There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

Ray expounds from the Scriptures that Adam and Eve were indeed CARNAL.

Please describe a Babylonian

A Babylonian is a member of Christendom.  Babylon is spiritual city where Satan has his throne.

Rev 2:13  Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.

The Church, Christendom, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great all refer to spiritual Babylon that has thousands of harlot daughters.

...Debate is wrong but if the motive is pure then................... I love a good honest, uplifting debate. It's hard to control the emotions sometimes but what's wrong with a little heat? I see Ray use it and of course I see that Jesus used it.

Refuting with evidence and exposing those who contradict is entirely another subject. By contrast , debate is a hobby and entertainment for fun.

REFUTING with evidence by rebuttal,  proves false those who contradict God, which brings hate, persecution and in the case of Jesus, crucifixion. No one goes after a death sentence for the fun of it. 

What Ray and Jesus and Paul do is they REFUTE  and EXPOSE with evidence the false assumptions and idolatry of the Pharisees and Religious Scholars and Lawyers of the day. This  earnt the death penalty for both Jesus and Paul and for Ray, it has not resulted in worldly gains in popularity, but persecution and resistance. 

I have to believe you have many spiritual brothers and sisters

Good catch.

I have more presence, more brethren, here in the Forum than in the world.

Thank you for your kind words.

Arc 

[claypot]

Were Adam and Eve Spiritual and in the Image of God? NO.

I agree. You do see Adam and Eve as us, all of us don't you?

Ray expounds from the Scriptures that Adam and Eve were indeed CARNAL.

Amen and amen.

A Babylonian is a member of Christendom.  Babylon is spiritual city where Satan has his throne.

Rev 2:13  Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.

The Church, Christendom, Judaism, the Whore, Mystery Babylon the Great all refer to spiritual Babylon that has thousands of harlot daughters.

I'm a bit confused here. So when you said you talked to a Babylonian are you saying a person who is true to Jesus?

Refuting with evidence and exposing those who contradict is entirely another subject. By contrast , debate is a hobby and entertainment for fun.

REFUTING with evidence by rebuttal,  proves false those who contradict God, which brings hate, persecution and in the case of Jesus, crucifixion. No one goes after a death sentence for the fun of it. 

What Ray and Jesus and Paul do is they REFUTE  and EXPOSE with evidence the false assumptions and idolatry of the Pharisees and Religious Scholars and Lawyers of the day. This  earnt the death penalty for both Jesus and Paul and for Ray, it has not resulted in worldly gains in popularity, but persecution and resistance. 

In what I term debating I always sought to accomplish exactly as you described above although I did so much so imperfectly. I so like Ray's writings because I feel like they resonate within my being as if I and they were one. He seems far beyond me and I suppose that is why God sent me to him and to people like you.

Cp

[Deborah-Leigh]

You do see Adam and Eve as us, all of us don't you?

Nope I am not Eve. I am Deborah

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the LAST Adam was made a quickening spirit.

I asked if Adam and Eve were in the Image of God. I answered that No they were not. I referred to the scriptures that are carried in Rays papers who better expounds this topic in much greater detail. 

you said you talked to a Babylonian are you saying a person who is true to Jesus

No again. 

Ref to :
LOF 11

Virtually all Christian Churches worldwide have within their doctrines, the depths of Satan. And that is why the cry goes out from God Almighty:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Come out of... who? Who is the "her?" Her is a WOMAN. A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a CHURCH.

Who is to "come out?" Answer: "MY people." Where are they? In her, in the CHURCH. What Church? The MOTHER CHURCH. Who is the MOTHER CHURCH?

The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sits upon many waters [many nations of people]: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication [intimate religious/political/economic relationships], and the inhabitants of the earth have been made [spiritually] DRUNK with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of ABOMINATIONS and FILTHINESS of her FORNICATION: And upon her forehead [where WE should have the name of God our Father, Rev. 14:1, but this mother church has instead...] ...a name written,

MYSTERY, BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:1-5).

So here is the worldwide mother church with her many catholic and protestant daughters, that sits upon many nations of people, holding a spiritual looking gold cup that when one partakes of it and drinks it down inside, it is really filled with, "abominations and filthiness"—instead of being the marvelous spiritual "DEPTHS of God" it is rather, "the DEPTHS of Satan.

Arc

[claypot]

 

A Babylonian is a member of Christendom.  Babylon is spiritual city where Satan has his throne.

Rev 2:13  Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.

Hi Arc, I see in this quote you put forth that it says "and yet you are true to Me' so it seems there are those within Babylon who are true to Jesus.

cp

[Kat]

Hi Claypot,

Rev 2:13  Satan's throne is there; and yet you are true to Me, and did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of Antipas My witness and faithful friend, who was put to death among you, in the place where Satan dwells.

"Satan's throne is there" in the church: "and yet you are true to Me" these are those that "come out of her My people" (Rev. 18:4). The church is the called/many and the chosen/few come out of the church.

Here is an excerpt from article 8 'What Happened to the Church Jesus Built?'

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -----------------

DEFINING "CHURCH"

Just what is a "church?" Strong's Greek Dictionary, #1570. ekklesia, a calling out. (1b) Ekklesia, from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling..." So the church is those whom God has CALLED OUT to be His "called out ones," hence, Jesus said, "So the last shall be first, and the first shall be last [sorry, don't have time to explain this unique statement of our Lord]: for many be called, but few chosen." I will take the time to explain this second statement, however.

Notice that the "called" and the "chosen" cannot be the same group, as one is "many" and the other is "few." God has given us a general statement as to whom He has called and whom He has not called. We already know the number of those called is "many." Now we will see the two general classifications of those called:

THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).

So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?

Hard to believe, isn't it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God's spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."

One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:

"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don't just 'work' together without GOD doing the 'working'] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not 'called' as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).

Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.

There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.

All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!

When Jesus says that,

"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord... Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),

He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!

We will see it conclusively proved from God's Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren't the "soft" words that tickle people's ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn't "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.

ARE YOU "CALLED AND CHOSEN" OR JUST "CALLED?"

Let me first state that there is an order in the process of being called to Sonship. First you are called, and then you are chosen from among the called. And we have already learned that the "chosen" are also the "few."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat