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[claypot]

While discussing with friends that believe in the 'eternal torment of most' version of Scripture I asked them why they think they are saved while others are not. They say because of their fruits. I remind them about those who came to Jesus saying they did this and that in His name, clearly displaying what they thought were fruits yet Jesus told them to depart from Him.

Many will say to  me  in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:  depart   from   me , ye that work iniquity. mt7.22

So then they say that it is a feeling, a sense of God in their innermost beings that makes them think they are the saved ones and I reply that many that even they would consider unsaved believe they have the same feelings.

So it all comes down to them not really knowing if they are of the saved or not.

I say this is the logical (logos) conclusion of their belief system. One can never really know if one is saved if based on a choice one must make from within one’s self! Can’t be done. No security there.

Now on the other hand if we can believe that God wants you saved and if you can believe that if God is for you then nothing can be against you ultimately, and if you can believe that God always gets what He wants then you can truly know that you have been, are and will be saved.

So simple, so simple.

cp

[Ninny]

Hi cp!
I haven't taken time to say it so...welcome!!
It's kind of funny that in church the pastors always say, " if you absolutely know for certain that if you died today you'd be in Heaven, raise your hand!" well you know That makes me kind of sad because I know now that was fear mongering  at its worst! Because they told you if you didn't know, then you wouldn't go!!! How rude!!! Of course I'd like to go back and tell them all in the famous words of L. Ray Smith..."WHAT A CROCK!" Freedom is knowing that we aren't saved until Jesus gets us out of this mess, but because of Jesus and the extreme love of our Father God...our salvation is sure!!! "If God Be for us WHO can be against us?" well WHO??? Our own free will?? Ha!!! 
Kathy

[mharrell08]

CP,

Always remember:

Rom 11:18-21  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Marques

[Samson]

While discussing with friends that believe in the 'eternal torment of most' version of Scripture I asked them why they think they are saved while others are not. They say because of their fruits. I remind them about those who came to Jesus saying they did this and that in His name, clearly displaying what they thought were fruits yet Jesus told them to depart from Him.

Many will say to  me  in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:  depart   from   me , ye that work iniquity. mt7.22

So then they say that it is a feeling, a sense of God in their innermost beings that makes them think they are the saved ones and I reply that many that even they would consider unsaved believe they have the same feelings.

So it all comes down to them not really knowing if they are of the saved or not.

I say this is the logical (logos) conclusion of their belief system. One can never really know if one is saved if based on a choice one must make from within one’s self! Can’t be done. No security there.

Now on the other hand if we can believe that God wants you saved and if you can believe that if God is for you then nothing can be against you ultimately, and if you can believe that God always gets what He wants then you can truly know that you have been, are and will be saved.

So simple, so simple.

cp

Hi Claypot,

               By God's Plan or Design of things, the majority of Mankind will not understand that eventually everyone is going to be saved and learn Righteousness(Isaiah. 26:9). Only God's Chosen Elect are saved in this Lifetime(Age) and everyone else is saved after the Resurrection. As Ray stated in the process of getting saved, they(Christendom's Denominations) have the order wrong. They believe that Repentance is First, Cleansing is Second and Forgiveness is Third. Actually the order is Forgiveness first, Repentance second and Cleansing third. Forgiveness is already a given and most of mankind, save God's Chosen Elect won't repent until they learn Righteousness, after the Resurrection.

    From Ray's Repentance and Guilty of All Transcript copied and pasted below in blue.

This is the order of what happens to sin:

1.   Forgiveness
2.   Repentance
3.   Cleansing

(God does not cleanse anybody of sins they haven’t repented of.)

Forgiveness comes first and isn’t that interesting.  Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world and why was he slain?  Why did Christ die?  The scriptures say Christ died for our sins.  That’s the simplest statement.  But there is a little bit more.  I want you to notice this:

I’m going to give you what happened BEFORE the Cross, AT the Cross and AFTER the Cross.

BEFORE the cross in Matthew 26 where Christ gave the symbols of the blood and the wine he says:

Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood that is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission just means forgiveness or pardon—your sins are remitted, forgiven, pardoned.  But this He told them at the Passover before he was crucified that If they partook of this symbol:  “This is the blood of the covenant that is shed for many for the remission of sins.”  Were the Apostles converted yet?  No, they weren’t even converted, but they are going to take these symbols, which show forgiveness!  That’s before the cross.

Now AT the cross.  Christ is hanging on the cross dying and He looks down to those who put Him up there and he says “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”.  Did they repent?  No.  Were they cleansed of their sins?  No.  But Jesus Christ forgave them.  He forgave them! 

Then AFTER the cross Jesus met with the disciples in Luke 24 and he said this:

Luk 24:47  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Now that doesn’t change the order because He said repentance and remission, we know that the sins are first remitted and then people repent and then they are cleansed.  So it was after the cross that even the apostles and the disciples really repented.  And we know that they repented because on the day of Pentecost (there were about 120 of them gathered together) and they all received the gift of the Holy Spirit, which was proof that they were repentant and converted to God. 

Then right after Pentecost, Peter got up and preached a powerful sermon and they got a little upset, and they were scared, and they said, “well, what should we do, alright you got us, we are guilty, what should we do?”

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter said, “Repent and be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”  And of course, all this is done in Jesus’ name, because there is only one name in heaven by which we must be saved.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now, baptism is added here... I don’t want to circumvent this or say well, of course you all know this was just a ritual and we don’t do it anymore, it was commanded.  For a while they did baptize people in water.  Why did they do that?  Well, quite frankly because they were spiritually immature.  They were also still circumcising people and doing some of the things that the law required under the old covenant, even though now Jesus Christ had plainly told them that He was instituting the new covenant!  They didn’t get it. 

Years and years later some came from Judea teaching where Paul and Barnabas had taught and said, 'you’re not going to be saved if you don’t get circumcised,' (meaning the Gentiles who had not been circumcised at eight days old like the Jews).  So there was no small disputation going on about this!  Paul and Barnabas agreed that they would go up to Jerusalem, to the elders, to the church leaders (Peter, John and James) and see about this thing.  Why?  Didn’t they know?  These are the apostles of Jesus Christ!  Didn’t they know whether a person should be circumcised or not?  No.  Paul and Barnabas didn’t think so, but those who came out of Judea they thought you absolutely should.   

Jesus Christ said after the resurrection, “I have many things to tell you yet but you can’t handle it all now.”  He couldn’t give it to them all at once.  Little by little, they started to get this information.  So how did they solve the problem?  God didn’t supernaturally come down like with Moses and take the tablets of stone and say, “alright now, here’s the new teaching on circumcision.”  Paul and Barnabas went up together and prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit to guide them in what to do.  The Pharisees insisted that they had to keep the Law of Moses and be circumcised, but Peter right off was in the camp with Paul and Barnabas.   

“It is needful to circumcise them and to command them to keep the Law of Moses” that’s what these Pharisees said.  Acts 6:15 “The apostles and elders came together to consider this matter and there was much disputing.”  They didn’t just sit down and say, okay, this is the way we’re going to do it….no, there was MUCH disputing and arguing back and forth, maybe for hours and hours, it doesn’t say.  This was a big deal!  They didn’t know!  They didn’t know what to teach the people!  They were out preaching Jesus Christ, but what were they to do then; do they circumcise them?  Baptize them?  Do they have to keep the Sabbath day?  They didn’t really know! 

I think Paul was mature enough and he was going to go up and fight for what he believed to be right.  And he didn’t want any authorization from Judea that these people were going to come out and try to teach heresy behind the people that he was converting.  And so there was much disputing, Peter rose up and said, “Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made a choice among us that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel and believe.  And God which knows the hearts bear them witness giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did with us, and he put no difference between them, purifying their hearts.”  See?  Peter understood these spiritual things.  He said, God PURIFIED their hearts.  That’s conversion!  That’s being born-again, begotten anew, regenerated, whatever word you want to use, that’s what THAT is.  And it was happening to the Gentiles. 

And he said, “Now therefore why do you tempt your God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we, were able to bear.  But we believe that through the grace of Jesus Christ we shall be saved even as they.”  And then the multitude got silent.  Barnabas and Paul got up and talked for a while, and then James got up and talked.  And they said, “Look, we’re not going to ask these Gentiles to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses”.  Remember, there were two issues.  Circumcision was as big an issue as the ENTIRE Law of Moses.  It was a big deal.  I mean, the worst thing you could call somebody was an “uncircumcised Gentile”.  That was like spitting in his face twice!  But they said, no, we’re not going to have that.  There were some things among the Gentile like going to their temples and fornicating with temple prostitutes, drinking blood offered to idols and other rank idolatry that they had to tell them to stop doing.   

So the apostles are learning.  And then it says in verse 28, “for it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us…” See? They were all in agreement then.  They laid hands on Paul and Silas and they sent letters out and so on, and that took care of the matter. 
 
 
                        Just adding to the discussion, Samson.
 
 
 

[Ninny]

Oh, cp... Just wanted to say when I want to say "WHAT A CROCK!" it's not to the ones who are being fed... It's the ones who use this fear to control the flock! We're in the dark until God gives us the light, but shame on those who teach their flock to fear their Shepherd!!! If the Shepherd can't save the flock, then all are lost!
Kathy

[claypot]

I understand completely Nin.

cp

[claypot]

CP,

Always remember:

Rom 11:18-21  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Marques

What a good humbling reminder, Marq, thanks. I'm hoping my boasting days are over. I'm 52, not too old but old enough for me to not really worry about winning arguments or anything but I do like to make others think. I don’t ever want to give up sharing the good news because I know I have changed in major ways so I know others can too. Sure it’s all of God but God uses the weak things (me) of this world to confound the wise. Expose the lies, love the person. Ray has nailed it down well!

cp