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[Extol]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960 ---

In "The Father's Will" Mobile '06 Conference, Ray says:

"Now He resides in heaven, the heavens being (among other things) us.  Our spirituality is of heaven and He dwells in man.  Don’t you know your body is a holy temple of God.  There are multiple heavens."

I remember reading similar things on bibletruths; about the "heavens" being our minds/thoughts or something. Can someone provide some Scriptures that help explain this? Or has Ray written about it in greater detail? I did a keyword search for "heaven" at biblegateway, and there are many hundreds of verses, so I thought I would ask here instead of going through every one of them. By saying that we are heaven, does Ray simply mean that God dwells in us [Acts 17:28], or is there more to it than that?

[Roy Coates]

Excerpt from 'What is the Gospel of the Kingdom?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html):


HEAVEN OF THE HEAVENS

So what is the kingdom?   We are the kingdom of God.  We are the kingdom of the heavens. 
Where does God reside?  In heaven.  God resides in heaven, but it is not called the kingdom of heaven in the Greek, you can check Rotherham and all those, it’s kingdom of the heavens, plural.  We are the temple of God.  God resides in His temple God resides in heaven.  We are the heaven in which God resides, where He dwells.
But don’t get to haughty, because the Scriptures say, not even all the heaven of the heavens can contain Him.

2Chron 6:18  …Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You.  How much less this temple which I have built!

But never the less it is true, He does dwell in the heavens.  But they can’t even contain Him, He’s bigger than that.  But He does dwell in His heavens, we are His heavens, we are His spiritual kingdom.  But it does not yet appear what we shall be, we only have the earnest, down payment of His spirit.

Eph 1:14  which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We have the down payment, but John says we will eventually see Him as He is, because we will be like Him.  We will be like Jesus Christ. 

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

So we are the kingdom of God.  Christ is going to return with a kingdom.  What does He return with?  What is the symbolism of how Christ returns?  He returns on, what is He riding?  A white horse.  Is anybody with Him?  An army.  Are they walking?  They are riding on white horses too.

Rev 19:14  And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

What is that army?  The kingdom of God, it’s us.  We are coming with Him, He is going to gather us up.  Gather up what?  His army, His kingdom.

We still have all these parables though.  We are the kingdom of God, so what are all these parbles?
The kingdom of God is like…a merchant
The kingdom of God is like…a seed
The kingdom of God is like…a king that goes afar
The kingdom of God is like…workers in a vineyard
Like… like… like…what is it like? 
Specifically we will see what the parables are all talking about, they are all talking about the same thing.  Jesus Christ says, “Do you not know this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” (Mark 4:13)

So does it mean if you know one parable that you can know them all?  Yes.  Why?  They are all the same.  That’s why the kingdom of God is like this and also like this and like this and this, etc.  Well what is that ‘like,’ like what?  Well it’s like Seed.  But what is that?  What is it saying though?  The Seed and the country and the vineyard and the leaven… what is it actually saying?  What is it like?  What is the ‘like’?


WHAT IS THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM?

So we are the kingdom!  We are the kingdom of God.  We are the temples - the heavens in which God’s Spirit dwells.  We are a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar special people to God and through this kingdom, with Christ as the King, all the families of the earth are going to be blessed.  But we are blessed through judgment and they are going to be blessed in judgment.  We may think it would be nice if it was another way, but it’s through judgment

[G. Driggs]

Just to add to what Roy posted.

The Lake of Fire - Part IX

 THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake9.html


I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTNING FALL FROM HEAVEN

Now for one of the most amazing symbol identifications found anywhere in the Scriptures. What did Jesus mean when He said: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)? Did Jesus see Satan fall from the sky? Did Satan fall from outer space? Did Satan fall from the throne of God’s heaven? From what "heaven" did Jesus see Satan as lightning FALL FROM? If only we can believe the Scriptures.

 

GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (II Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

    "At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"

The king of Babylon had a dream, and in the dream his kingdom was likened to a tree:

    "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached into HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:11).

The kingdom of Babylon didn’t grow into GOD’S heaven, that’s for sure. No, Daniel identifies who the tree represents:

    "The tree that you saw… It is YOU, O king, that are grown and become strong: for your greatness is grown, and reached unto HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:20a & 22).

The king of Babylon reached the same heaven that the city of Capernaum reached:

    "And thou Capernaum, which art exalted to HEAVEN, shall be thrust down to hell [hades/death/the grave]" (Luke 10:15).

Sinful Capernaum was never exalted to GOD’S heaven, but to their OWN HEAVEN, the heaven of their own minds. Their city never left the surface of the earth, but IN THEIR MINDS they thought they had reached "heaven." Now then, with this in mind, let us move ahead two verses and see how all these Scriptures tie in and harmonize together. Verse 17:

    "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

    "And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps

G.Driggs

[Kat]

Hi Extol,

Here are a few emails where Ray speaks of "heaven" to add to what Roy and George already posted.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2268.0.html -----

When the Scriptures say that something is "like" something else, it means "similar, in some ways."  Not the "same as," as some people think the word "like" means, but "similar."  Not similar in all ways, but similar in "certain ways."  The word like is really pretty close to a metaphor.  A metaphor is when one thing is said to BE something else, as "the lake of fire IS the second death."  But it is not LITERALLY what it is said to be, but only "like something else, IN CERTAIN WAYS."
 
Are you now thoroughly confused?  I hope not.  And so the Kingdom of God is "like"............"leaven in three measures of meal."  It is NOT leaven in three measures of meal, but "SIMILARY, IN CERTAIN WAYS."  The Kingdom of God is LIKE, "a drag net full of all kinds of fishes."  It is NOT literal fishes, but "SIMILAR, in certain ways."  Some fish are good for food and some are not (that's about all fish are good for AT ALL, unless you have them for pets--but you can't pet a fish, like I can and do pet my cats all the time).  They are good for food or not good for food.  The Kingdom of God is LIKE THAT.  Some of those who Believe in and follow Jesus are GOOD FOR FOOD (spiritual food) for the nations of the world), but some are not--in fact, some are POISONOUS--like the unbelievably painful rock fish.
 
The Kingdom of God is "similar to, in certain ways," a plainted or plants grain............A man who takes account of his servants..................a man who builds a house................new wine in old wine skins..........the wheat and the tars.............the pearl of great priced..................the prodigal son and the older brother..........the lost sheep.....................the unforgiving servant.................the workers in the vineyard........the wise and foolish virgins..............the talents............the good samaritan..................the barren fig tree.............the great supper.........the lost coin............the Rich man and Lazarus........the Persistant Widow............the Pharisee and the tax collector, etc., etc., etc.  Are you seeing it?  The Kingdom of God is like "MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN"!  NOW are you getting it?  I hope so. I'll take it up in a future Conference (but you have got to come.......)!!
God be with you,
Ray
Does that help you at all?  Just carry this truth out in every parable concerning the Kngdom of God, and you will begin to understand what the Kingdom of God is really LIKE.  Isn't understanding the Scriptures really fund?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html --------

The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides.  To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.  Too big a subject for an email.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2772.0.html -----

God lives in a different "realm" from us. If we must use
physical analogies, I suppose we could say that we live in the physical
subject to death; whereas God lives in the spirit and never dies. We
live in a world of wickedness; whereas God lives in a world of
righteousness.  We live in darkness;  whereas God lives in light.
God's elect are making the transition and transformation from evil
to good; from physical to spiritual; for darkness to light.
 
God tells us absolutely nothing concerning our future spiritual lives
with Him. The Scriptures are silent on this aspect of God's plan. We
must accept on faith that all will be as great as God promises.

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#babel ------------------------

Seeing that Jesus said while He was on this earth, that He was also at the same time, IN HEAVEN, ought to dispel and fanciful idea that the Heaven of God's Throne is in outer space on some huge galactic rock.

God's heaven is a higher spiritual realm of life and existence, not a geographical location in outer space.

Hope that helps a little.

God be with you,
Ray

[claypot]

Just to add to what Roy posted.

The Lake of Fire - Part IX

 THE LIFE AND MISSION OF SATAN THE SERPENT DEVIL

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake9.html


I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTNING FALL FROM HEAVEN

Now for one of the most amazing symbol identifications found anywhere in the Scriptures. What did Jesus mean when He said: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)? Did Jesus see Satan fall from the sky? Did Satan fall from outer space? Did Satan fall from the throne of God’s heaven? From what "heaven" did Jesus see Satan as lightning FALL FROM? If only we can believe the Scriptures.

 

GOD’S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN’S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (II Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN’S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

    "At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"

The king of Babylon had a dream, and in the dream his kingdom was likened to a tree:

    "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached into HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:11).

The kingdom of Babylon didn’t grow into GOD’S heaven, that’s for sure. No, Daniel identifies who the tree represents:

    "The tree that you saw… It is YOU, O king, that are grown and become strong: for your greatness is grown, and reached unto HEAVEN…" (Dan. 4:20a & 22).

The king of Babylon reached the same heaven that the city of Capernaum reached:

    "And thou Capernaum, which art exalted to HEAVEN, shall be thrust down to hell [hades/death/the grave]" (Luke 10:15).

Sinful Capernaum was never exalted to GOD’S heaven, but to their OWN HEAVEN, the heaven of their own minds. Their city never left the surface of the earth, but IN THEIR MINDS they thought they had reached "heaven." Now then, with this in mind, let us move ahead two verses and see how all these Scriptures tie in and harmonize together. Verse 17:

    "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

    "And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps

G.Driggs

This is so good and what I, in my feeble way, was trying to say. Ray said this….

 It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve’s mind

This is why I like Ray’s teachings so much. I said similar to Arc but was kind of taken to task but now that I see Ray saying the same thing I feel exhilarated again.

I said the serpent in the garden represents the carnal mind of natural man and Rays says…..

Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced"

Ray does say it better but what he is saying is what I was inferring. I am off to re-read this article again. Thanks Drigg for posting it.

cp

[claypot]

Ray said:

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

To me, Scripture backs Ray up perfectly when it says:

....the  carnal   mind  [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. romans 8.7

cp

[mharrell08]

Ray said:

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

To me, Scripture backs Ray up perfectly when it says:

....the  carnal   mind  [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. romans 8.7

cp

No Claypot, Ray does not teach that Satan is our carnal mind.

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.msg14346.html#msg14346):

Dear Azaleen:
So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What  I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures?  Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6300.msg50839.html#msg50839):

Dear Mark:  Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job?  Did Jesus tells HIS OWN "CARNAL MIND" to "get behind Me, SATAN?" (Luke 4:8 )?  Did Jesus have a "carnal mind?" A "satan" within Him?  Is God going to chain the "carnal mind" in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-2)?  Is He then going to release  the "carnal mind" for a little season?

        I await your reply.

        God be with you,

        Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,75.msg242.html#msg242):

Dear Timothy:

You believe what you believe because you do not believe the Scriptures.

Was Jesus really tempted by His "fallen carnal mind--His evil nature?"  Was Jesus referring to"His own carnal nature" that Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, Satan?"   Was Jesus' "carnal evil nature," "enmity against God?"  Did Jesus really HATE HIS OWN FATHER?   It's an "idol of your heart," Timothy, give up.

Ray


What Ray does teach of this belief of Satan representing the carnal mind is that it is an IDOL OF THE HEART.


Marques

[claypot]

This is from Ray’s writings in the LOF series #9….
http://www.bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).

It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."

I hear ya Marq. Ray does not directly say the serpent is the carnal mind. He does say carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time

Like I said, Ray puts it better than I. He associates carnality so closely with the carnal mind as to make them one in a spiritual sense. Carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time, wow!

Jesus never had a carnal mind but He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. So was this ‘devil’ Jesus’ carnal mind? No. Jesus never had a carnal mind. That doesn’t mean, in a spiritual way, the spirit of carnality wasn’t always trying to get within Him, His mind. Jesus never allowed this to happen. I believe, and I will look for it in Ray’s writings, that Jesus had thoughts come to Him of the nature we read about in His wilderness temptation but they never got in Jesus. Kind of like when Jesus cried out on the cross something like My God why have you forsaken me. I don’t believe God forsook Jesus yet a darkness of sorts covered Jesus’ ‘mind’ for a time and He thought God forsook Him.

Off to search Ray’s writings for his backing in what I am saying.

cp

[claypot]

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.msg14346.html#msg14346):
Dear Azaleen:
So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What  I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures?  Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6300.msg50839.html#msg50839):

Dear Mark:  Was it "the carnal mind" that presented itself to God in the opening chapters of Job?  Did Jesus tells HIS OWN "CARNAL MIND" to "get behind Me, SATAN?" (Luke 4:8 )?  Did Jesus have a "carnal mind?" A "satan" within Him?  Is God going to chain the "carnal mind" in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-2)?  Is He then going to release  the "carnal mind" for a little season?

        I await your reply.

        God be with you,

        Ray


With the greatest respect for Ray I just want to suggest a few things about the verses he brings up here.
 
Rev20.1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

Spiritually the Scriptures are written as Ray always says. They have spiritual meaning primarily.

Rev 20 here says to me that the carnal mind of man will be enslaved by a higher divine presence (our very own Lord, Jesus Christ) for a time. To every thing there is a  season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven. eccl 3.1


  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,  5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1cor5.5

Here in Corinthians Paul is speaking in a spiritual sense also. In the presence of Jesus Christ and His power give a person fully over to his carnal mindset (flesh) and see where it leads. It will lead to utter destruction of carnality and leave only the ‘spirit’ in it’s place. Carnal living carried out to it’s logical end will be destruction. It is ‘eternal’ destruction at it’s finest.

In the opening chapters of Job it was the very real presence of the carnal nature that was present before God. This is also primarily spiritual dialog as is all of Scripture as Ray himself says so often. The Word of God is spiritual. God uses human terms to reveal spiritual truths.

Just thinking out and asking God to guide.

I commented on Jesus and the carnal mind in previous post.

cp

[mharrell08]

I hear ya Marq. Ray does not directly say the serpent is the carnal mind. He does say carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time

Like I said, Ray puts it better than I. He associates carnality so closely with the carnal mind as to make them one in a spiritual sense. Carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time, wow!

And neither does he teach it INDIRECTLY. I don't understand how the statement 'It's an idol of the heart, give it up' can be turned into 'he does not say it directly...but puts it better than I'.

Jesus never had a carnal mind but He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. So was this ‘devil’ Jesus’ carnal mind? No. Jesus never had a carnal mind. That doesn’t mean, in a spiritual way, the spirit of carnality wasn’t always trying to get within Him, His mind.

WHAT? Do you make this stuff up as you go along?

Jesus never allowed this to happen. I believe, and I will look for it in Ray’s writings, that Jesus had thoughts come to Him of the nature we read about in His wilderness temptation but they never got in Jesus.

Where is it written that a temptation 'goes in' to a person? How is a person's thoughts NOT in them?

Kind of like when Jesus cried out on the cross something like My God why have you forsaken me. I don’t believe God forsook Jesus yet a darkness of sorts covered Jesus’ ‘mind’ for a time and He thought God forsook Him.

Off to search Ray’s writings for his backing in what I am saying.

cp

What is a darkness of sorts? How/When is it ever 'sort' of dark?

CP, I've heard some whoppers in my time on the forum but I promise this takes the cake.

In all seriousness, these attempts to bring outside teachings are against forum rules. You've been shown ample material from Ray but yet you attempt to talk around it. No more...you can disagree until the cows come home, but the forum is not the outlet for you to teach otherwise.


Thanks,

Marques

[Kat]

Claypot,

What you are saying is contrary to what Ray teaches and it is against the forum rules for one to bring his own understanding/teach here. Those 2 emails that you posted was Ray showing what someone else stated and it was understood by the question marks that was NOT what Ray believed.

Here are a couple of more things where Ray explains about Satan.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,75.0.html ------

You believe what you believe because you do not believe the Scriptures.

Was Jesus really tempted by His "fallen carnal mind--His evil nature?"  Was Jesus referring to"His own carnal nature" that Jesus said, "Get thee behind Me, Satan?"   Was Jesus' "carnal evil nature," "enmity against God?"  Did Jesus really HATE HIS OWN FATHER?   It's an "idol of your heart," Timothy, give up.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -------

WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

According to Christendom, Satan created himself. He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve’s seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:. And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong’s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:

(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, ‘From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

"Behold, I have created the smith [that’s me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO’S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men’s flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn’t finished YET!

"And no marvel [Gk: to wonder with ASTONISHMENT]; for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: meta schematizo, transfigure -- to change the outward form or appearance, to make GLORIOUS] into an ANGEL OF LIGHT" (II Cor. 11:14).

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there none beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL [even the creation of evil and even the creation of Satan] THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Satan is evil, God created evil, God CREATED SATAN!

"He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:. So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?
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If you still think that Ray teaches that Satan is our carnal nature, then you should email him so that you can have him explain it for you at L.RaySmith@comcast.net

mercy, peace and love
Kat