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[markn902]

Hi everyone 

       My wife and I currently reading through Luke as our Bible Study that we do every week and I thought I might post on here about Luke 9 vs 28-36 where Jesus is praying and then the apostles saw a vision of Elijah and Moses. After that came the booming voice saying "this is my son listen to Him"

So I was hoping to open this up to comments specifically what was the point or meaning of Elijah and Moses being seen with Jesus? For that matter how would these apostles recognize Elijah or Moses seeing how they were long since dead?

I used the search feature and found this post

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7245.0.html

BUT ...you could look at this way:  they are ALL SPEAKING THE SAME MESSAGE, side by side...THEY are ALL in AGREEMENT with eachother, concerning the prophecies about Jesus! (*Remember that Jesus TRIED to tell the disciples several times that He would be crucified at Jerusalem...but they didn't GET IT!)

I can agree with that but it seems like there may be more to it than that..

It seems almost deliberately misleading ( I hate to say that about scripture I hope that's not offensive) But if you look at those verses (28-36) they come right after vs 18-20 where people are spreading rumors that Jesus was Elijah or John the Baptist or some other prophet that had come back to life now that's not possible according to scripture and also in vs 27 Jesus tells His Apostles some of you will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God. Which is another verse that people have used to teach what would seem to be a contradicting truth about death and the resurrection.

So any comments would be great. I am not in a spiritual emergency over this or anything like that. I am just interested in what other like minded individuals have to say on this. Am I wrong to say "deliberately misleading"?

Thanks everyone have a nice day 

[Samson]

Hey Mark,

              I got your PM, a few minutes ago. Unfortunately I'm busier than usually, have to work a 12 hour shift for second day in a row, one of the Day Shift guys got fired and we are covering, plus my Wife just had surgery a week ago and I need to assist her too, have to take her to the Doctor for a follup check up before work. However, while reading the copy I printed of The Origin Of Endless Punishment By Ray last night at work, I stumbled upon a point regarding the Disciples of Jesus and some of their erroneous beliefs that they had regarding the afterlife. At that time, Jesus didn't correct their Heresy right away, but didn't say they were right either. Jesus had many things to tell them, but they weren't ready for full explanation at that time. See the Subheading found below from Ray's article on endless punishment, it doesn't directly answer your question, but I think it might shed some light on their mindset. See below in blue ! I will get back to you later.

THE SIN OF A MAN BORN BLIND:

"And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)

What? How, pray tell, could this blind man be responsible for his own blindness when we are plainly told that he was born blind? Not only did the disciples believe the pagan doctrine that the soul is immortal, but they believed that souls could transmigrate from one body to another body.

The idea that the disciples are presenting to Jesus is the pagan doctrine known today as "The transmigration of souls." This doctrine teaches that souls do not just live on, as in "immortal" after death, in some fabled hellhole of eternal torture, or some heaven on a rock in outer space, but rather that at death, the immortal soul migrates to inhabit the body of another person about to born into the world.

Many in the world today continue to believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of souls. There are some pagans who believe that the souls of the dead can also reappear in the life of a pig, snake, nor some other animal.

Seriously, why would Christ’s disciples believe that a man could have sinned before he was ever born?

But what is even more remarkable is the fact that Jesus did not correct them, but rather went along with and acquiesced to their pagan notions. Jesus did not demean their foolish statement or their foolish belief, but countered with:

"Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents…" (John 9:3).

Jesus spoke the truth, for truly this man had not sinned (however, Jesus did not inform them that it would have been impossible for him to sin before he was born). But Jesus did not expose this pagan heresy to His disciples at this time. For what possible reason would Jesus want to keep His own disciples deceived?

REINCARNATION/TRANSMIGRATION OF SOULS:

On another occasion:

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that You are John the Baptist: some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets" (Matt. 16:13-14).

Some even thought that He might be John the Baptist, which is really strange, seeing that Jesus was already the same age as John, when John was beheaded.

Did Jesus Christ believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of immortal souls? Where did this teaching come from, and why does Jesus make reference to it? Why didn’t Jesus expose this pagan heresy to His disciples instead of going along with their false statements?

PARABLES - THE RICH MAN IN HELL/HADES:

"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

The Egyptians called their place of punishment in the underworld, amenti. When the Greeks borrowed most of the Egyptian myths surrounding this place called amenti, they called it by the name hades.

Thomas Thayer supports Professor Stuart, Greppo's Essay, and Spineto, that: "The Amenti of the Egyptians originated the classic fables of Hades and Tartarus." (Doctrine of Eternal Punishment, Chapt. 3, P. 7).

Did Jesus believe that when people die, they are consciously alive and tormented in the pagan hell of the Greeks named after their pagan god, hades?

Why would Jesus use pagan religious doctrines and beliefs to teach spiritual truths of God? Haven’t these things deceived the Church and caused the many different denominations of Christendom? Yes, of course they have, and so have all the parables which Jesus taught that virtually no Church understands. The Church does not even understand the few parables that Jesus explained!

How many theologians believe and understand that all the parables are the same parable? Tis true:

"And He [Jesus] said unto them, Know you not this parable? And how then shall you know all parables? (Mark 4:13).

All parables are the same parable. I know: it boggles the mind. It takes the Spirit of God to understand these spiritual teachings.

And just as when Jesus said: "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," no one understands what He meant until it was fulfilled. Everyone thought he meant the literal physical stone temple rather than His own body.

Likewise, only the "Chosen few" can understand the parables as they are fulfilled in their own lives, generation by generation, until the parables are fulfilled.

The Jews of Jesus’ day learned these pagan teachings referred to above, plus many more, but from where did they learn them? For a fact they did not learn them from Moses, the Prophets, or Hebrew Scriptures. Who taught these pagan doctrines? Can we trace back such doctrines as "the immortality of the soul," "reincarnation," "consciousness and everlasting punishment after death?" Yes, we can.

Hope some of these excerpts help, I wasn't aware of some of these points until yesterday, must of forgot, but the Apostles and disciples had false understandings regarding the afterlife, derived from the Pharisees. Anyway, hope it helps somewhat. Correspond with you at a later date.

                            Kind Regards, Samson.

[arion]

Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Elijah and Moses really didn't appear to the disciples.  It's clear that it was a vision.  This is one of the scriptures that people will use to attempt to prove that believers are in heaven right now and aren't really dead when they die.  I know that doesn't address your specific questions but it's something that is interesting nevertheless.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Am I wrong to say "deliberately misleading"?

You have correctly discerned.

Jesus taught the masses in parables and parables ONLY so that they would NOT understand the message He was giving them (See Matt. 13). L Ray smith PARABLES ARE NOT LITERALLY TRUE STORIES LOF 1

Consider also the false teachings that overthrow the faith of some and how this is accomplished.

2Ti 2:18  Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Jesus tells His Apostles some of you will not taste death until you see the kingdom of God

Also consider the following:
 
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead [ spiritually dead people] which were in it;

This is speaking of the SPIRITUALLY DEAD from the great sea of humanity.... L Ray Smith SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE LOF PARTX11

Some stranding here were surely the Apostles of Christ who would not be those counted with the spiritually dead would they?

Arc

[markn902]

Thanks you for your replies everyone   and Samson I hope your wife is recovering well. Hopefully you can get some R&R soon!

[Pini56]

Hi all,

It is interesting who appeared with Jesus in the vision. Moses who was the law giver, and Elijah who was the foremost Prophet.
In scripture Jesus says I have come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

It would make an interesting study don't you think.

Peace Geoff.

[chuckt]

Hello all long time, blessings to all.

this might be a little off topic, but i also see the two crucified with Jesus , one representing law the other grace.

be that as it may, from gen to rev. we see the unveiling of Jesus Christ.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

and so:

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


blessings
chuckt

[mharrell08]

Hi all,

It is interesting who appeared with Jesus in the vision. Moses who was the law giver, and Elijah who was the foremost Prophet.
In scripture Jesus says I have come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.

It would make an interesting study don't you think.

Peace Geoff.

Good point Geoff...and Peter confirms this as well when testifying of Jesus' transfiguration:

2 Pet 1:16-21  For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

And the images of Moses & Elijah talked with Christ fulfilling His prophecy:

Luke 9:28-31  It came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering. And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease [Gk. 'exodus' - departure; exit] which he should accomplish at Jerusalem

And as you noted from Jesus' own words, He came to fulfill the Law & the Prophets which testify of Him, including His departure.


Marques

[Dave in Tenn]

I like that too, Geoff.  And the 'end' of the account is telling as well.

Luk 9:35 And a voice came out of the cloud saying, "This is My Son, The Chosen; Him be hearing."
Luk 9:36 And at the coming of the voice, Jesus was found alone. And they hush, and to no one in those days do they report anything of what they have seen."

The Transfiguration account is my favorite bible story.  There's so much Spiritual meat in that extraordinary account when we have a basis in Truth.  Thanks for reminding me. 

[Pini56]

Hi all,

Continuing. These are the words of the Prophet:

1 Who has believed our message? To whom will the Lord reveal his saving power? 2 My servant grew up in the Lord’s presence like a tender green shoot, sprouting from a root in dry and sterile ground. There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance, nothing to attract us to him. 3 He was despised and rejected–a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way when he went by. He was despised, and we did not care.
4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows* that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God for his own sins! 5 But he was wounded and crushed for our sins. He was beaten that we might have peace. He was whipped, and we were healed! 6 All of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him the guilt and sins of us all.
7 He was oppressed and treated harshly, yet he never said a word. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter. And as a sheep is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. 8 From prison and trial they led him away to his death. But who among the people realized that he was dying for their sins–that he was suffering their punishment? 9 He had done no wrong, and he never deceived anyone. But he was buried like a criminal; he was put in a rich man’s grave.
10 But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord’s plan will prosper in his hands. 11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of what he has experienced, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins. 12 I will give him the honors of one who is mighty and great, because he exposed himself to death. He was counted among those who were sinners. He bore the sins of many and interceded for sinners. Isaiah 53. NLT.

Jesus is the fulfilment of this Prophesy. This is how we know that jesus is who he says he is. The Son of God, the Saviour of all Sinners, of which we all are. The Prophet bears witness long before Jesus came to Earth.

Peace, Geoff.

[Marky Mark]

Thanks Geoff. Great verse. Can't deny the facts, of the truth.


Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Geoff,

That was amazing to see what the Prophets in the Old Testament said that happened absolutely exactly as they said. Here are a few more fulfilments of Prophesies that were spoken by the prophets.

Mat 1:22  So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
v. 23  "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.


Mat 2:15  and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him and called My son out of Egypt.


Mat 8:17  so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, "He took on Himself our weaknesses and bore our sicknesses."

Isa 53:4 Yet surely, our sicknesses, he, carried, And, as for our pains, he bare the burden of them,—But, we, accounted him stricken. Smitten of God and humbled, (Rotherham)


Mat 12:18  `Lo, My servant, whom I did choose, My beloved, in whom My soul did delight, I will put My Spirit upon him, and judgment to the nations he shall declare, (YLT)

Isa 42:1  Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him, he will bring forth justice to the nations. (RSV)


Mat 13:34  All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
v. 35  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."

Psa 78:2  I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings from of old,


Mat 21:4  All this was done so that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,
v. 5  "Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes to you, meek, and sitting on an a@@, even a colt the foal of an a@@."

Zec 9:9  Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, your King comes to you. He is righteous and victorious, meek and riding on an a@@, even on a colt, the son of an a@@. (MKJV)


Mat 27:35  Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: "They divided My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots."

Psa 22:18  They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Joel]

Its a great thing that God the Father did that day on the mountain!
Interesting that Moses, and Elijah were the ones in the vision, and also interesting to me the apostles Jesus took with him to pray.
Something that was no doubt burned into their minds for the rest of their lives.
Peter, and James both died for the Gospel, And John was chosen to record the Revelation while imprisoned.
God always gives a wittiness before any major events, a verse in Amos is a promise of God.
Amos 3:7 "surely the Lord will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (KJV)
"But always, first of all, I warn you through my prophets. This I now have done" (Living)

So great is the LOVE of our GOD!, We should hear the Lord Jesus, in THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK. All the prophets spoke of HIM.

Joel

[Pini56]

Hi all,

Wonderful post as always Kat.

I don't post very often even though I've been a member of this forum since mid 2007 and first came to Ray's website in 2005 when I typed the word hell into Google after being devastated to the point of wanting to die. A very great fall. I tell you the wind and rain came hard that year. The flood was so awesome it utterly destroyed the Mansion I had built on the sand. I remember being in bed feeling so distraught that I turned to the wall and cried out to God, "I trust You". I won't go into what happened, it's a very long story but suffice to say it led me to here. Maybe I'll tell my story some other time, but not on this post. Anyway the reason I don't post very often is because I just love to read what other people have to say and don't feel the need to post. What I've noticed is lot of running to and fro with people seeking knowledge when I think all the Lord really wants is a deeper relationship. And from this relationship the Lord will teach you all that you need to know for he is ultimately the Master and Teacher our great Shepherd. In saying that, the Lord does use people to teach his truths and I believe Ray Smith is one of those rare persons that does. May God heal and bless Ray in his distress and give him peace in the midst of his trial. May he go on.

Again, these are the words of the Prophet:

1 Nevertheless, that time of darkness and despair will not go on forever. The land of Zebulun and Naphtali will soon be humbled, but there will be a time in the future when Galilee of the Gentiles, which lies along the road that runs between the Jordan and the sea, will be filled with glory. 2 The people who walk in darkness will see a great light–a light that will shine on all who live in the land where death casts its shadow. 3 Israel will again be great, and its people will rejoice as people rejoice at harvesttime. They will shout with joy like warriors dividing the plunder. 4 For God will break the chains that bind his people and the whip that scourges them, just as he did when he destroyed the army of Midian with Gideon’s little band. 5 In that day of peace, battle gear will no longer be issued. Never again will uniforms be bloodstained by war. All such equipment will be burned.
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. And the government will rest on his shoulders. These will be his royal titles: Wonderful Counselor,* Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His ever expanding, peaceful government will never end. He will rule forever with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David. The passionate commitment of the Lord Almighty will guarantee this! Isaiah 9: 1-7.

I hope these word's of the Prophet will encourage people to keep going as it has me. That the trials will not go on forever. That one day there will be a deliverer
who will rule from Zion and his righteousness and peace will flood the earth. Again this Prophesy is pointing to our Lord Jesus

May God's Countenance shine upon you and give you peace, Geoff.   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Dear Geoff

I hope these word's of the Prophet will encourage people to keep going as it has me. That the trials will not go on forever.

Thank you for referring to your personal experience that assures that our purging, purifying and perfecting chastisements shall not last forever. I needed to read your testimony that stirred in me to recall.....

Isa 38:2  Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to Jehovah,
Isa 38:3  and said, Remember now, O Jehovah, I beseech You, how I have walked before You in truth and with a whole heart, and have done the good in Your sight. And Hezekiah WEPT WITH A GREAT WEEPING.
I said in February that I gave up my soul and more recently my spirit but that was foolishness born of deep suffering.   I have no strength or power to live or die.
  
 So thank you for the comfort. It means a lot.

Arc

[Pini56]

Dear Arcturus,

Thank you for referencing those particular scriptures to me, it has reminded me of where I've come from and how much I've learned since then. I have learned so much truth in the past few years that the trials and tribulations are insignificant compared to the comfort of knowing the real truth of the Gospel. In reading Ray's teaching's I have laughed and cried at the same time. I love his whit and the way he writes, he makes the scriptures come alive. Thank you also to everyone on this site, especially the moderators, who make time to keep this site going, for without the fellowship of like minded people it would really be hard. Reading a lot of other peoples stories has made me realise that I'm not the only one going through hard times, it helps me to put everything in their proper perspective.

To Arcturus and anyone else that wants a good Psalm to lift their spirits and to hang on to in time of trial.

1    Those who live in the shelter of the Most High
will find rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2    This I declare of the Lord:
He alone is my refuge, my place of safety;
he is my God, and I am trusting him.
3    For he will rescue you from every trap
and protect you from the fatal plague.
4    He will shield you with his wings.
He will shelter you with his feathers.
His faithful promises are your armor and protection.
5    Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night,
nor fear the dangers of the day,
6    nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness,
nor the disaster that strikes at midday.
7    Though a thousand fall at your side,
though ten thousand are dying around you,
these evils will not touch you.
8    But you will see it with your eyes;
you will see how the wicked are punished.
9    If you make the Lord your refuge,
if you make the Most High your shelter,
10    no evil will conquer you;
no plague will come near your dwelling.
11    For he orders his angels
to protect you wherever you go.
12    They will hold you with their hands
to keep you from striking your foot on a stone.
13    You will trample down lions and poisonous snakes;
you will crush fierce lions and serpents under your feet!
14    The Lord says, “I will rescue those who love me.
I will protect those who trust in my name.
15    When they call on me, I will answer;
I will be with them in trouble.
I will rescue them and honor them.
16    I will satisfy them with a long life
and give them my salvation. Psalm 91. NLT.

May this Psalm be a light unto your soul and give you strength, as it did me.

P.S. I apologise if this is a little off the subject of the original post but I felt I needed to say it. It seemed opportune.     

[Deborah-Leigh]

Thank you Geoff

God love you

Deborah

[cjwood]

thank you geoff for posting that psalm. it has reminded me of the sure faithfulness of our Lord God.

claudia

[indianabob]

Thanks once again Geoff,

It has come to mind more than once that most folks who profess Christianity still have a very difficult time placing their full trust in God's providence. The Psalm you posted is very helpful and I'll keep it before me at my desk.

Warm regards, Bob

[Pini56]

Hi all,

I'm glad the Psalm has blessed some of you. Thank you Deborah for your kind words and I'm glad it reminded you Claudia of God's faithfulness. And Bob I too have it hanging on my fridge, for when I'm down it's there to remind me how wonderful our God is and how much he love's us.

All to often we let the days drag us down. It is so good to know that all I have to do is look in the Scriptures, especially the Prophets and the Psalms, and know that the promises of God are everywhere to be found and how they just brighten up my day. Think about this scripture every morning when you get up. Quote: "This is the day that the Lord has made, I will rejoice and be glad in it." I hope this scripture jumps up and bites you on your heart every morning.

Peace To All. Regards, Geoff.