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Author Topic: View of the cross?  (Read 8198 times)

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Lupac

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View of the cross?
« on: April 21, 2010, 02:28:34 PM »

Hi, I was wondering what the true view of the cross is, according to the Scriptures? I was taught the "Penal Substitution" version, which is basically "man messed up and offended God, so God had to have a perfect blood sacrifice so He could forgive us". Like all other of Babylon's doctrines, I don't believe it's true, but what is? There are other views, like "God tricked Satan with Jesus so men would be redeemed from his power"... Yeah, right. But, I'm not sure what the true view is. Can anyone help? Thanks.
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mharrell08

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2010, 02:34:13 PM »

Hi, I was wondering what the true view of the cross is, according to the Scriptures?

There is no 'view of the cross' teachings, according to the scriptures. Christ says His blood is shed for the 'remission of sins' [Matt 26:28].

I don't want to have to lock this thread Lupac, but there is no point asking for opinions on unscriptural beliefs. The purpose of the forum is to discuss the material on the website and the scriptural truths revealed in them. Hope you understand


Marques
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Lupac

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2010, 02:42:55 PM »

What? Look, I am NOT supporting any "unscriptural beliefs. I stated the two in my first post were untrue. Did you even read it? Maybe I didn't make it very clear. I wanted to know why Jesus had to die on the cross. Three words really don't explain it very well, or tell how. You can lock it, I really don't care...
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mharrell08

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2010, 02:54:20 PM »

What? Look, I am NOT supporting any "unscriptural beliefs. I stated the two in my first post were untrue. Did you even read it? Maybe I didn't make it very clear. I wanted to know why Jesus had to die on the cross. Three words really don't explain it very well, or tell how. You can lock it, I really don't care...

A couple things Lupac:

1. I never stated you supported unscriptural beliefs (Did YOU even read it?)

2. No, you didn't make it very clear...no where did you ask 'why' Jesus had to die on the cross.

3. You can read the material on the website to get further explanation on the term 'remission of sin'. You'll need to read the Lake of Fire SERIES, not just cut & paste quotes to get a better understanding.


Marques
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2010, 03:00:33 PM »

I don't recall where the statement was made by Ray, but Jesus came and died to prove God loved the world.  That's the meaning of Jn 3:16. 

Is that the be-all-and-end-all answer?  Every scriptural reason for Jesus's death is true and part of the same thing.      

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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Lupac

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2010, 03:06:21 PM »

I don't recall where the statement was made by Ray, but Jesus came and died to prove God loved the world.  That's the meaning of Jn 3:16. 

Is that the be-all-and-end-all answer?  Every scriptural reason for Jesus's death is true and part of the same thing.      



Wow, I never thought of it like that. I'm sorry Marques, I may have overreacted. Dave, thanks. In my first post, what I was trying to say is, every view I've read on the cross boils down to: God "needed" perfect blood to "fix" what we "broke". So I was wanting to know what the true, Scriptural view was/is. Sorry I wasn't more clear.
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soberxp

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2010, 03:42:47 PM »

Lupac
 you wanted to know why Jesus had to die on the cross.

cuz Satan Seduced Eve eating the forbidden fruit,
Eve be tempted to crime,These charges are suicide and murder of her husband, ;D a little funny,but there has a perpetrators behind the scenes,Satan.
she must be pregnant,to proliferation of life-sustaining.(you should think about God's salvation plan is ready.God is righteous and fair,as the police to find the perpetrators behind the scenes.)
As human ancestors, Eve and Adam Disobedient to God commanded,so as their offspring, our world  Always full of wars and conflicts.

God want to save human,but How to make this seem fair to Satan ::)?(we should know god want to kill Satan ;D)  that's why Jesus had to die on the cross.

mercy,Peace,fun,love
Soberxp
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2010, 04:36:10 PM »

While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  It was prophecied, foreshadowed, and typified in countless ways in the Old Covenants.  Jesus died in obedience to the Father.  As He is in the world, so are we.  He died as an example.  We take up our own cross and follow Him.  That's not near the end of it.  

There's more scriptural 'reasons' for the death of Christ than can be listed in a web-forum.  People err, in my opinion, when they strive to make any one of them true to the exclusion of the others.  That's theology.   Truth is all the same grand thing.  
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 08:12:16 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Marky Mark

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2010, 05:01:38 PM »

Lupac,can you see the contrast? Our Father is all so Wise. ;)


http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

 THE CHURCH OF EPHESUS

"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life" (Rev. 2:7).

(1)

That’s CHRIST.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection and [I am] the LIFE� (John 11:25).

The KJV translates "tree" in this verse from the Greek word xulon. Here is Strong’s definition of xulon: "timber (for fuel or material); by impl. a stick, club or tree or wooden art. or substance … xulon, wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood." The word "tree" does fit what is spoken of in this verse, but when we come to Rev. 22:2, "tree of life" does not seem to fit as well.

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life…" (Rev. 22:2).

How do we have one tree of life on BOTH sides of the river?

One translation translates both of these verses as "wood of life." Another has, "log of life." Interestingly, one translation has this footnote, Wood is the primary significance of zulon, and may here denote, as in Rev. xxii, an aggregation of dendra, or trees, commonly called a wood, or forest; a xulon of life, occupying a place on both sides of the river."

What a marvelous word picture God has presented to us in these words. Jesus Christ is first and foremost, "The" [singular] Tree of Life. This is the Tree of Life spoken of in the Garden of Eden. That tree grew out of the earth, just as Jesus (the source of life—from His Father) came in the flesh (the "earth") to bring life (immortality—deathlessness, eternal life) to all humanity. Interestingly, the first time xulon is used in Scripture is where Jesus said,

"For if they do these things in a green [living] tree [Gk: xulon—wood] what shall be done in the dry [dead wood]?" (Luke 23:31).

Jesus Christ is the "green living tree." Jesus met His death by being crucified. The "cross" of Christendom was really a post, pole, or upright stake that is fastened or planted in the ground manually—it did not grow from that spot. It is not a living xulon or wood or tree. Jesus died on a DEAD wood or dead tree.

But Jesus is now raised from the dead and is the Live Tree, the Tree of LIFE. We get a "taste" of this life when God gives us of His Holy Spirit. But we receive only the "ernest" or down payment in this life:



Peace...Mark
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2010, 06:17:32 PM »

Here also are some important points to ponder and study that may be re-visited in the insights that expound God's Word found in the respective References provided.


Lev 17:11  For the life [‘soul’ - nephesh, not ‘life’] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the BLOOD that makes an atonement for the soul.

And so it is abundantly clear from the Scriptures, that it was not the heart or mind of Jesus that was the actual offering for sin, but His Own body which contained His blood.  And this very blood which contains Christ’s soul, that was poured out onto the ground, which atones for OUR sin……..

 Did we sin?  Yes.  Is there a penalty?  Yes.  Christ said, I’ll take your sin and I’ll pay your penalty.  Did now, Christ sin?  No.  Is He guilty of sin?  No.  He just said I’ll pay the penalty for them.  He died FOR us, the Bible says.  He didn’t die in our place instead.  He didn’t die so we don’t have to die.  He died FOR us.
REF : WAS CHRIST MADE SIN  


(John 10:18). He died to prove to us that He loves us. He didn’t have to, He just did it. So we would know that He loves us. We can’t say, but our Creator had it made in the shade, no.  He came down and was under the same temptations, under the same rules and regulations and then He went to the cross and died, voluntarily.  He says in effect, if that doesn’t show that I love you, I don’t know what else I can do.

So that’s what He did and that’s why He died, because He loved us and He wanted to prove it.  So He died for our sins.  God accepted that for a sacrifice, but it was a voluntary sacrifice.

God became a man and died, because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.


REF : WHAT IS THE FATHER’S WILL



Quote
I don't recall where the statement was made by Ray, but Jesus came and died to prove God loved the world.  That's the meaning of Jn 3:16.

Hi Dave, maybe this is the statement you recalled by Ray.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much.  But the Concordance version has it right,  John 3:16 “For thus God loves the world…”

Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said.  It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no.  It says this is how He loved the world, that’s what it means.  He didn’t so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, “He gave His only begotten Son,” ok.  But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right.  That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO.
REF : WHAT IS LOVE

Arc
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Kat

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2010, 07:25:02 PM »


Hi Lupac,

Here are a couple of emails that should help with your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3460.msg25787.html#msg25787 ----

I really marvel that anyone would ask this questions, yet hundreds of asked it and continue to ask it regularly. The question should rather be:  "If most people are NOT saved from some eternal hellhole of torture, then WHY did Jesus have to die to be a Saviour to billions of people who will never be saved?  That should be the obvious question.
    The answer, however, to your question is, it is ONLY by means of Jesus' sacrifice and sin Offering for our sins that ANYONE could ever be saved, and it is by the same means that ALL WILL BE SAVED.
     
    ALL HAVE SINNED, and Jesus DIED FOR THE SINS OF "ALL" THE WORLD (I John 2:2).
    The wages of sin is DEATH, and therefore Jesus will ABOLISH DEATH (I Cor. 15:26), so that ALL MAY BE SAVED (I Tim. 2:4) seeing that He gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL (Ver. 6), but this ransom will be testified only, "in DUE TIME." This age is NOT the time for the salvation of all. This is "a" day of salvation, but not "the" day or only day of salvation. See my HELL Part D to be posted next month for all the details of this and much much more.


http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm --------------------------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jere:

When we come to realize the Scriptural truth that there is no ETERNAL HELL-HOLE OF TORTURE IN FIRE, does that mean there is NOTHING else to be saved from?

Consider: "The wages of sin is DEATH." Who or What will save us from THIS FATE, Jere? If you answer is NO ONE, then this life is all there is, and there ain't no more, because we have ALL SINNED. But we can be very thankful that God was well aware of this problem in humanity and provided for it: 

"For the wages of sin IS death; but the GIFT of God is eternal [eonian life followed by deathless immortality] THROUGH [this is the reason He died] Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

We will also be saved from: pain, disease, heartache, fear, weariness, boredom, hatred, laziness, immorality, stupidity, vanity, inferiority, weakness, addiction, worry, failure, and a thousand other things that we all need salvation from!

Asking why Jesus had to die on the cross IF all people will be saved anyway is about like asking: "I can understand why the fireman had to go into the burning building to save one trapped person, but since he, in fact, saved ALL TEN TRAPPED PERSONS, why did he have to go into the burning building AT ALL?

You see, that HOW the fireman saved ALL TEN TRAPPED PERSONS, and going to the cross to die is HOW Jesus Christ saves ALL HUMANITY!

God be with you,

Ray


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onelovedread

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2010, 09:13:12 PM »

Lupac:

I wonder what you really mean by "view of the cross".
Are you asking why Jesus died on the cross? What really do you mean by "view"?
What is it that you're trying to gain from this thread?
I don't get it. I am as perplexed as Marques because I don't see the point.
There is so much that Ray has written on Jesus' shedding of His blood to save all, that it really makes one wonder if we are reading the articles and teachings. Even the emails to Ray answer several questions.
I am sorry, but I'm just saying....
Onelovedread
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musicman

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2010, 10:27:56 PM »

god is so mad that the Jews killed his son that we are now required to wear the heaviest cross around our necks possible.  And the more gold used in its construction, the better.  Gold weighs a lot, so the more gold u wear now in the shape of a cross, the more gold will be laced through your house in heaven.
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Lupac

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2010, 03:21:35 AM »

Lupac:

I wonder what you really mean by "view of the cross".
Are you asking why Jesus died on the cross? What really do you mean by "view"?
What is it that you're trying to gain from this thread?
I don't get it. I am as perplexed as Marques because I don't see the point.
There is so much that Ray has written on Jesus' shedding of His blood to save all, that it really makes one wonder if we are reading the articles and teachings. Even the emails to Ray answer several questions.
I am sorry, but I'm just saying....
Onelovedread


My question was not so much "why" Jesus died but "how". If you understand. In what way did Jesus dieing save us from sin? I was talking in my first post a "penal substitution", it's the most common view in Babylon, so I figured it wasn't true. It states that since we sin, God "needed" blood in order to forgive us, to "appease" Him. I knew that couldn't be right, so I asked what was. Thanks.
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longhorn

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2010, 08:24:10 AM »

Musicmans post caused me to dribble some giggle spital.

Love in Christ

Longhorn
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Kat

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2010, 12:00:36 PM »


Hi Lupac,

The way I understand this is Jesus died because we have to die. The things is God has determined His plan to be so that all of the human race, because we sin, must suffer death and await the resurrection. Now Jesus volunteered to die, so as to show the degree of love He has for us, it was not because He had to, but because He wanted to, that's why He volunteered. Because God's plan requires death to all of us, so He wants us to know He was not above going through what we have to go through even death on the cross. It was the ultimate thing to do to prove to us how much He loves us.

Rom 5:6  For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7  For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Rom 5:10  For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11  And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0 -------

God made us, He put us through it, but we will never in all eternity, be able to have a one-upmanship over God, by saying you don’t know what it’s like.  It’s already decided.  First of all, God gave up His Son, and for any of you that are parents, it is harder to give up a son than it is to give up yourself.

Now Christ is the actual Creator, He reduced Himself down to the very humans He made, to be just like them.  Except He had the Spirit of God.  So He came down to show us how to live as a human being, under all the duress, stress, and mess and He did it humbly and perfectly.

So He set us an example and He could have stopped there.  He could say I went through hunger, they tried to throw me off cliffs, they slapped Me, they mocked Me. They put spears in My side and He could have zapped them in a second.  He let them do that for 33 years and never fought back, and never had a evil thought against them.  

He showed you how to live and He could have quit.  But after He did all that, He said now I’m going to die for you, because I love you. Think about it, He didn’t have to die, nobody took His life. He said I lay down My life and “no one takes it from Me,” (John 10:18). He died to prove to us that He loves us. He didn’t have to, He just did it. So we would know that He loves us. We can’t say, but our Creator had it made in the shade, no.  He came down and was under the same temptations, under the same rules and regulations and then He went to the cross and died, voluntarily.  He says in effect, if that doesn’t show that I love you, I don’t know what else I can do.

So that’s what He did and that’s why He died, because He loved us and He wanted to prove it.  So He died for our sins.  God accepted that for a sacrifice, but it was a voluntary sacrifice.  It wouldn’t have needed to be done, they did it that way, but it didn’t need to be done that way.

They (Israelites) were forgiven for a whole year, just by the sprinkling of a goat’s blood, in the Holy place on the Day of Pentecost. But Christ wanted to prove to the human race that He was every bit as good of a man, as any other man was.  He doesn’t sit in His ivory tower telling us how great He is. He did it as a man. God became a man and died, because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.

This is awesome stuff.  It’s like a fairytale from Greek mythology, but it’s not, it the Bible.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 07:31:08 PM by Kat »
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aqrinc

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2010, 03:06:30 PM »

Hi Lupac,

I get your question brother; also the wise counsel of many here, have provided you with more than adequate answers to study and ponder. We need to learn and remember all of what we are being taught, that takes time patience and humility. Remember Ecc 1:13 In context of your questions and especially the excerpts from our sisters and brothers in this and many other threads.

The Sum of it all is so much greater than the component parts, but it takes a whole lot of learning, with The Spirit Of GOD And Christ Being your Tutor (By Grace are ye being Saved-Made into GOD'S Family).


1Jn 4:16 (MKJV)
16  And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:17 17-21 (Wuest's)
In this has been brought to completion the aforementioned love which is in us , which love exists in its completed state, resulting in our having unreservedness of speech at the day of the judgment, because just as that One is, also, as for us, we are in this world. Fear does not exist in the sphere of the aforementioned love.

Certainly, this aforementioned love which exists in its completed state throws fear outside, because this fear has a penalty, and the one who fears has not been brought to completion in the sphere of this love, and is not in that state at present. As for us, let us be constantly loving, because He himself first loved us.

If anyone says, I am constantly loving God, and is as constantly hating his brother , he is a liar.

For the one who is not constantly loving his brother whom he has seen with discernment and at present has within the range of his vision, God whom he has not seen with discernment and at present does not have within the range of his vision he is not able to be loving.

And this commandment we have from him, , The one who is constantly loving God should constantly be loving also his brother .

george :).

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onelovedread

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Re: View of the cross?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2010, 07:37:42 PM »

Hey Lupac
I now understand and am on the same page with you now.
I just didn't get it at first but now I do. And it really brought out some nice posts from the other sharers. I am sorry if I came over a bit sharp and harsh but that may be just due to my being a grumpy guy. Please forgive me if I offended you. I want to keep the unity because now you guys are my "church" and I really depend on your sharing.
Thanks for the explanation.
Onelovedread
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