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Author Topic: Just for loves sake ?  (Read 4514 times)

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gallenwalsh

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Just for loves sake ?
« on: April 28, 2010, 01:15:01 PM »

I was reading through some forum threads and I came across something from one of Ray's papers stating that Christ died simply to prove to us that he loves us. Not anything like I was taught regarding the sacrifice of Christ. I was taught that God the Father took out all his anger on Christ, he withdrew his spirit from Christ right at the point of his death " Father why have you forsaken me " Christ died in our place, so we do not have to die.Do I understand that correctly? Can any one show me that in Scripture ?  Why was the cup of Christs blood acceptable for atonement then ? I really like what Ray is saying but I am a little confused.
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Kat

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Re: Just for loves sake ?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 01:34:04 PM »


Hi gallenwalsh,

Here is an email to help with this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4163.0 -------

I realized that “For He has made Him who knew no sin, to be sin” can only be grammatically correct if the second ‘sin’ is used metaphorically, thus making it not a literal fact. Otherwise it is a bad translation (which it is).

        It’s interesting to note that, even though they have that translation in their definitions, the bible study still uses the “to be sin”  in their lessons.

        May God bless you and yours.     

        Mike


        Dear Mike:

        NO, "He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner…..."  is a horrible translation. God never treated His Son "AS IF" He were a sinner, seeing that He NEVER DID SIN!  "Sin OFFERING" is the proper translation, not based on the singular word "sin" from which it is taken, but based on the KNOWLEDGE OF HOWS LANGUAGE IS USED.  We have a plethora of proof from the Old Testament that "sin" MUST be translated "sin OFFERING," in many Scriptures, and that is why it was translated "sin offering" in many Scriptures. But in II Cor. 5:20, the Translators dropped the ball and did not do what they surely knew was the proper way to translate it, but since they were working with Greek rather than Hebrew, they let it slide.

        I have about 30 pages of notes on this subject and I will turn it into a full article in the near future, so look for it. There are many, many, Scriptural proofs against the damnable heresy that Jesus Himself was the personification of sin and that His Father was displeased with Him, and that He was marred in His Fathers hands, and had to be crushed and ground to powder all the days of His life, and that God thus poured out His anger, indignation and wrath against His Son, and that Jesus' blood was no different and no better than ours. I will blow this damnable teaching right out of the sky!
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Here is the link to the Bible study he was referring to.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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mharrell08

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Re: Just for loves sake ?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 05:13:52 PM »

I was reading through some forum threads and I came across something from one of Ray's papers stating that Christ died simply to prove to us that he loves us. Not anything like I was taught regarding the sacrifice of Christ. I was taught that God the Father took out all his anger on Christ, he withdrew his spirit from Christ right at the point of his death " Father why have you forsaken me " Christ died in our place, so we do not have to die. Do I understand that correctly?

No

Can any one show me that in Scripture ?  Why was the cup of Christs blood acceptable for atonement then ? I really like what Ray is saying but I am a little confused.

John 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

John 10:17-18  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Excerpt from Mobile Conference 2009 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99627.html#msg99627):

EMPITIED HIMSELF SO HE COULD DIE

But I’m at the place where I firmly believe Jesus Christ was not just a man or an ordinary man or totally a physical biological man with nothing divine about Him whatsoever? I don’t believe that.

I believe in my heart of hearts that our Creator Himself died for us. Not God the Father, our Creator. Think about that tonight.

If you were God and you made humanity or you made it through somebody else, like His Son Jesus and He wants the people to understand the severity of sin and evil. So He makes a regulation that if you sin the penalty for that is death, okay. Well now He’s going to make a way that, although we still die, we will not die forever. We will be resurrected back to life and eventually all humanity will be changed into spirit, with spiritual bodies and live in harmony and order for all eternity.

So now you need a way to justify the fact that you are going to have mercy on this humanity and let them live after all, but not without a great sacrifice. So does He say, ‘let me see how will I do this, I’m not going to get My hands dirty, Jesus, guess what… You are the honored chosen one, I’m going to kill you for the people… what do You think of that? You do it.’ Think about it. It doesn’t quite seem fair some how, does it? Couldn’t God have come up with some better plan, where maybe nobody had to die, you know?

But it was determined Jesus Christ was going to die for His creation. But it certainly was not forced upon Him, I’ve told you time and again He volunteered. He emptied Himself of His power and glory, divinity and majesty. He emptied Himself to be made for a little while, thirty three years, lower than an angel so He could die.

I believe that with the wisdom of Their minds, that there was no conceivable act that would prove to humanity, any possible greater love that God has for His creatures, then to die for them. He DIED for them!

Did He have to die? No. Well why did He die? Is there some demonic force out there, some Dark Vader that said, ‘well now some bodies got to die Lord, I want to see a sacrifice and I want to see some blood here.’ Who made that rule? God did.  He makes the rules, He can break the rules. That’s the golden rule, him that’s got the gold makes the rules. God owns all the gold.

So there’s something special, what seems foolishness to the world… ‘you’re going to hang on a cross and that saves humanity, how so?’ Because He is the creator of humanity, He volunteered, He said I will die for My own creation. In that sense it was Christ’s creation, He created it.

It just doesn’t make any sense at all that some Jewish boy could grow up and become the Savior of the world and there is nothing special about Him, no. He’s just another man, then why is His life worth that of fifty billion other human beings? But, now the life of the Creator, now we are talking something, we’re talking heavy duty stuff here big time. I think if you meditate on that for some time like I have, you begin to realize just what an incredible sacrifice that was.

It didn’t have to be, it was a volunteered thing. Christ said, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13). But that is usually under a situation where He has to lay down his life or his friend will die. Soldier will sometimes throw themselves on a hand grenade and let it blow up their own body. That happened just a few weeks ago, where a man jumped on a grenade and let it blow his guts out to save the men around him.

But with Jesus He didn’t have to die. I mean God can save humanity without anybody having to die on the cross to do it. Why did He do it? To show us how much He loves us! I mean when there is no real compunction that something needs to be done and you volunteer to do it, just because you want to prove to somebody your love… I mean that is pretty profound.

So this can not be accomplished with just some ordinary man. But He had to suffer like a man, so that nobody could ever say, ‘well yea God, You were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, you wouldn’t know a hard days work know how. You just say let it be and it is. I have to work my fingers off and sweat and break my finger nails and cut myself. What does God know about a hard days work? Nothing.’

I talked about that last year. This is an amazing thing that God did, I mean He had it all planned out. Imagine that, the greatest creation in the universe His only begotten Son and He’s going to sacrifice Him! It wasn’t a matter of, ‘you do it Lord, I don’t want to do it, you do it.’ Any parent knows that if their child is put in a situation where they are going to be hurt or tortured, the parent would much sooner trade places than to see that child tortured to die.

So you think that there was, you know, no skin off the Father’s nose, so to speak, over this? He emphasizes, His ONLY begotten Son. Notice He doesn’t say Mary’s only begotten Son… His! God said that Boy was His, that was His boy, He was special. He was God’s boy.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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gallenwalsh

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Re: Just for loves sake ?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 09:38:05 PM »

Perfect ! That is exactly what I was looking for. Much love. G walsh
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Joel

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Re: Just for loves sake ?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 09:41:53 PM »

I can't see God the Father taking out any wrath on the SPOTLESS LAMB OF GOD. God required under the old covenant that what ever was being offered, be the best, the cream of the crop.
So as Ray stated "This was God's boy", how can there be any better than that?
Jesus did the PERFECT will of the Father all his life, can that be said of anyone else? I think not.
The Father accepted the Sons offering on our behalf, that we may have LIFE, and also be his sons and daughters.  can we die daily ??? He is our example.

Joel
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