why pray

[wisdom]

Hello to all. I am fairly new to this forum so if my topic was brought up or discussed recently bare with me. From rays teaching i understand that God is in control of everything and his WILL will be done.................so what is the use of prayer for? If i pray or dont pray about a situation wont i still get the same result.........GODS WILL? Thanks to all and i appreciate all responses.

[Dave in Tenn]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I don't really see God as One who is giving results.  I see God as sovereign and doing His will.  Does He do his will whether or not we pray for it to be done?   Php 2:12-13 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.  To me, that means our prayers, and not just the answers, are part of His will.

We pray because He causes us to pray.  We humble ourselves to His will because He is operating in us to do that.  The admonition of Scripture and the encouragement of other believers is part of how He causes us to pray submissive to His will in the first place.  

The churches see God as if He was a great big vending machine in the sky waiting for us to supply the right 'coinage' to convince Him to dispense the product of our choice.  The really 'spiritual' ones in religion recognize that the vending machine has a mind of its own and doesn't always do what we want.  I think WE are more like the vending machine, and He is pushing all the right buttons to cause US to give up to Him what HE wants.  

There's lots more.  I hope you've read the study on Praying by God's rules available on the front page.  I hope others offer you some solid food as well.

Welcome to the forum.  

[mharrell08]

Hello to all. I am fairly new to this forum so if my topic was brought up or discussed recently bare with me. From rays teaching i understand that God is in control of everything and his WILL will be done.................so what is the use of prayer for? If i pray or dont pray about a situation wont i still get the same result.........GODS WILL? Thanks to all and i appreciate all responses.

Hello Wisdom,

Here are a few email replies from Ray that may help.

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6296.0.html):

Dear Hobe:  You are not paying close attention to what I have written, and you have not studied such important papers of mine such as "The Myth of Free Will Exposed."  Don't feel bad, however, as hardly anyone can comprehend this teaching. Let me make it as simple as I can. God already knows and has declared the "END FROM THE BEGINNING" (Isa. 46:10). Therefore nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING can ever change from what God ALWAYS KNEW WILL BE.

Now hold that Scriptural thought and don't ever let it go!  Next comes the more difficult part for most to believe and understand.

Things that God knows WILL HAPPEN, don't JUST happen without His sovereign direction.  Therefore, some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them.  Ah, but that is where I lost you and most others as well.  I repeat:  Some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them to happen.  Does that mean that if you had NOT PRAYED for them they would NOT have happened. Exactly. Isn't that what I just said?  Well then, just how can God KNOW what will happen if you DON'T pray for something to happen that He knows MUST HAPPEN?  Whether it happens or doesn't happen in this case all hinges on WHETHER YOU PRAY FOR IT OR NOT.  So how can God know FOR SURE?  If God WANTS something to happen through a prayer of yours, and God KNOWS that something will happen IF YOU PRAY for it, guess what?
GOD WILL SEE TO IT THAT  Y-O-U  D-O  P-R-A-Y  F-O-R  I-T!  And this is exactly what God teaches in the Scriptures. Now can you see and understand it?

Here's another example:

1Co 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Now then, FOUR things need to happen for this Scripture to come true.

1. People must "believe."

2. Therefore God must give these people "faith."

3. They must hear the needed preaching.

4. God must provide for "the foolishness of preaching" through people like me.

Hope you understand.

God be with you,

Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#whypray):

Dear Kathy:

I get asked this question quite often. Actually the fact that God is in control of EVERYTHING is a very good reason itself to pray.  We are totally reliant upon God for EVERYTHING!  Think about it. If there were a human being that you had to rely upon for EVERYTHING, would you not stay VERY CLOSE to that person and ALWAYS be in CONSTANT contact with them?  Of course you would.

I KNOW that I have had prayers ANSWERED, ONLY BECAUSE I ASKED!  But you might say, "How can that be if God predetermined to do it ANYWAY?"  But you see, Kathy, He did not predetermine to do it "ANYWAY."  That is OUR ASSUMPTION that is not true. Listen:  God predetermined to do something for us only AFTER we asked for it!!  And yes, it is true, that God predetermined that we WOULD ASK FOR IT, as well.  We just can't out-think, or out-guess, or out-smart God no matter how hard we try.

Let me give you another piece of wisdom. We are told that we are to "Work out our OWN salvation" in the Scriptures.  How can we work out our own salvation if God has already determined that we will be saved and He is going to SAVE ALL?  Same answer as your question to prayer:  "Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling [WHY? Next verse]...For [or because] it is GOD which works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13).

It is inspired of God that we pray and that we work. Just because it is God doing it, does not negate the fact that it will be done in us and through us. In time of real and desperate need, we will be brought to our knees before God whether it seems logical in the face of God's total sovereignty or not!

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

Sincerely,

Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#whypray):

Dear Shawan

I constantly receive emails from people who think there are obvious and blatant contradictions between the way we live and absolute laws of God.

The answer is contained in your own question. I realize that this takes a little thought. I have personally thought about all the possible implications of God's Sovereignty and our lack of free will, for thousands and thousands of hours.

Your question is a logical one. If God is going to do exactly what He has predetermined to do, in every and all situations, then our prayers will CHANGE NOTHING!  Right? WRONG!

But HOW CAN THAT BE? That's a contradiction of logic, isn't it? No, it is not. Here is the answer: God not only brings about the result which He always has in mind for every situation in life, and in every situation in the history of the world, but He ALSO BRINGS ABOUT THE MEANS BY WHICH THAT RESULT IS ACCOMPLISHED!

Therefore, nothing is accomplished AT ALL, unless God brings about the MEANS of accomplishing it.

Example:  When Paul was sailing on a ship to Rome, they ran into a terrible storm. It appeared that all would be lost. An angel appeared in the night to Paul and told him that not one hair of anyone's head would be harmed, but that all had to STAY ON THE SHIP!   Some attempted to depart from the ship. Paul told them that if ever they should not stay on the ship, they would DIE! Now then, how could the possibly "die" when an angel of the Lord told Paul that NO ONE WOULD DIE? A contradiction? Absolutely not.

Since God had already committed Himself to SAVING EVERYONE, He also made sure that the instructions needed to accomplish that WERE FOLLOWED PRECISELY! And so those men CAME BACK ON THE SHIP, and they were ALL SAVED JUST AS THE ANGEL TOLD PAUL!

But isn't prayer effective only if it CHANGES GOD'S MIND to do something for you that He wouldn't have done for you had you NOT prayed? Again, absolutely not. God is not a man that He should "change His mind" about anything, ever!  Now, learn something about prayer that virtually no one in all Christendom believes or understands. First, let's look at Romans 8:26.

From the King James:

"Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities, for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

This marvelous Scripture, however, does not bring out the whole truth contained in the Greek manuscripts regarding this verse, in the King James Version. Here is a better translation.

From the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"Now, similarly, the spirit also is aiding our infirmity, for what we should be praying for, to accord with WHAT MUST BE, we are not aware, but the spirit itself is pleading for us with inarticulate groanings."

"With WHAT MUST BE..."  There is the answer!  And here is the perfect application of this verse in the real world:

"And He went a little further and fell on His face, and prayed saying, O My Father, IF it be possible, let this cup pass from Me: [but that was NOT POSSIBLE! God had already PREDETERMINED that Jesus SHOULD drink this cup, and therefore, IMMEDIATELY recanted to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and said the following...]: nevertheless not as I will, BUT AS THOU WILL ['to accord with WHAT MUST BE']."

Then Jesus prayed again, WITHOUT asking God to take the cup from Him:

"He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if this cup may NOT pass away from Me, except I drink it, THY WILL BE DONE" (Matt. 26:39 & 42).

Clearly Jesus was CAUSED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to pray "in accord with WHAT MUST BE."

And the same thing that goes for prayer goes for EVERYTHING in our lives. It will always be according to God's preordained intention. That is not to say that things do not got AGAINST HIS WILL, they often do. But... BUT, it is also often God's intention that we DO GO AGAINST HIS STATED WILL. Many times it is God INTENTION that humanity goes AGAINST HIS WILL. In Romans 9:19 were it says, "For who has resisted His WILL?" it should be translated: "For who has resisted His INTENTION." This is a different Greek word from what is normally translated "will."

People also often ask why I do what I do on our web site in teaching people the Truths of God, if God is going to save everyone anyway. Again, the answer is simple: This is HOW God brings about the salvation of many people. By teaching and preaching. He doesn't have to do it this way, but He has CHOSEN to do it this way.  Hence we read:

"For after that in the  wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God BY THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING to save them that believe" (I Cor. 1:21).

And, of course, we know that it is again, God Himself, Who gives us the faith to believe in the first place (Eph. 2:08).

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray


Hope this helps,

Marques

[claypot]

That is some good stuff, very good stuff.

Seems so simple once you 'see' it but I understand how it is total confusion and 'untruth' to those who don't see it yet.

cp

[Ricky]

Hello, I have a question on this one, what if God does not cause you to pray. What would that mean? His will is still going to happen minus what you don't pray for cause you wont get it if you don't pray for it. Is that correct?
    Bless you all    Ricky
             

[aqrinc]

Hello, I have a question on this one, what if God does not cause you to pray. What would that mean? His will is still going to happen minus what you don't pray for cause you wont get it if you don't pray for it. Is that correct?
    Bless you all    Ricky
             

Read the excerpts that Marques put up above, a few time, the answers are there for your question already.

george .

[mharrell08]

Hello, I have a question on this one, what if God does not cause you to pray. What would that mean? His will is still going to happen minus what you don't pray for cause you wont get it if you don't pray for it. Is that correct?
    Bless you all    Ricky

Hello Ricky

Are you trying to say, if no one prays for God's Will to be done, will it get done anyway? I think Ray explains best:

Things that God knows WILL HAPPEN, don't JUST happen without His sovereign direction.  Therefore, some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them.  Ah, but that is where I lost you and most others as well. I repeat: Some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them to happen.  Does that mean that if you had NOT PRAYED for them they would NOT have happened. Exactly. Isn't that what I just said?  Well then, just how can God KNOW what will happen if you DON'T pray for something to happen that He knows MUST HAPPEN?  Whether it happens or doesn't happen in this case all hinges on WHETHER YOU PRAY FOR IT OR NOT.  So how can God know FOR SURE?  If God WANTS something to happen through a prayer of yours, and God KNOWS that something will happen IF YOU PRAY for it, guess what? GOD WILL SEE TO IT THAT  Y-O-U  D-O  P-R-A-Y  F-O-R  I-T!  And this is exactly what God teaches in the Scriptures. Now can you see and understand it?

Here's another example:

1Co 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Now then, FOUR things need to happen for this Scripture to come true.

1. People must "believe."

2. Therefore God must give these people "faith."

3. They must hear the needed preaching.

4. God must provide for "the foolishness of preaching" through people like me.


One other note, prayer is not always a request or petition from the Lord. It's simply communicating with the Lord...we don't have to always 'ask' for something. We can simply let Him know what's on our minds & hearts...like one would with their physical father, mother, mentor, confidant, etc.

We would not talk to these people to only ask for something, we would talk to them for good company's sake. The same holds true for our God & Savior.


Marques

[chuckt]

To me, that means our prayers, and not just the answers, are part of His will.

i like that and it speaks volumes.

1Th 5:17   Pray without ceasing. 


1Th 5:18   In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 


inlove
chuckt

[claypot]

For it is God who works in us to DO and to will of His good pleasure. This just can't be stressed enough.

cp

[soberxp]

Hello, I have a question on this one, what if God does not cause you to pray. What would that mean? His will is still going to happen minus what you don't pray for cause you wont get it if you don't pray for it. Is that correct?
    Bless you all    Ricky

Hello Ricky

Are you trying to say, if no one prays for God's Will to be done, will it get done anyway? I think Ray explains best:

Things that God knows WILL HAPPEN, don't JUST happen without His sovereign direction.  Therefore, some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them.  Ah, but that is where I lost you and most others as well. I repeat: Some things would never happen unless you PRAY for them to happen.  Does that mean that if you had NOT PRAYED for them they would NOT have happened. Exactly. Isn't that what I just said?  Well then, just how can God KNOW what will happen if you DON'T pray for something to happen that He knows MUST HAPPEN?  Whether it happens or doesn't happen in this case all hinges on WHETHER YOU PRAY FOR IT OR NOT.  So how can God know FOR SURE?  If God WANTS something to happen through a prayer of yours, and God KNOWS that something will happen IF YOU PRAY for it, guess what? GOD WILL SEE TO IT THAT  Y-O-U  D-O  P-R-A-Y  F-O-R  I-T!  And this is exactly what God teaches in the Scriptures. Now can you see and understand it?

Here's another example:

1Co 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."

Now then, FOUR things need to happen for this Scripture to come true.

1. People must "believe."

2. Therefore God must give these people "faith."

3. They must hear the needed preaching.

4. God must provide for "the foolishness of preaching" through people like me.


One other note, prayer is not always a request or petition from the Lord. It's simply communicating with the Lord...we don't have to always 'ask' for something. We can simply let Him know what's on our minds & hearts...like one would with their physical father, mother, mentor, confidant, etc.

We would not talk to these people to only ask for something, we would talk to them for good company's sake. The same holds true for our God & Savior.


Marques

I agree with you,Marques.such things has happen to me,not for my pray,but for others,so others pary what happened to me,god let me do something for the prayer,that's gods way.

truth
soberxp

[gmik]

Thanks for this needed reteaching!!!  You can't ever read Ray's material too many times!!j  I always learn something new!  Thank you God for your marvelous wisdom and will in our lives!

[wisdom]

Thanks for all answers they have truly blessed me!!

[Dave in Tenn]

I see that Kat has added another topic to the FAQ board.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11739.0.html

Thanks for the question and the opportunity to answer.