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Author Topic: If the dead are dead how do you explain Matt. 17?  (Read 5266 times)

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wisdom

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If the dead are dead how do you explain Matt. 17?
« on: May 12, 2010, 02:47:21 PM »

I recently was having a discussion with a friend about how dead people are sleep until the resurrection vs being alive in heaven. She then asked how do you explain elias and moses meeting Jesus on the mountain in this chapter? Were they awaken from their sleep( for this special purpose). Also, how do you explain how a couple of people(apologies for not remembering their names) were taken up to GOD without dying. Since these two never "fell asleep" what is their current state? Thank you all for your responses.
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mharrell08

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Re: If the dead are dead how do you explain Matt. 17?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2010, 02:53:43 PM »

I recently was having a discussion with a friend about how dead people are sleep until the resurrection vs being alive in heaven. She then asked how do you explain elias and moses meeting Jesus on the mountain in this chapter? Were they awaken from their sleep( for this special purpose). Also, how do you explain how a couple of people(apologies for not remembering their names) were taken up to GOD without dying. Since these two never "fell asleep" what is their current state? Thank you all for your responses.


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3642.msg27163.html#msg27163):

Dear Henry and Mabel:
    Heaven is both a location as a direction--UP from the earth, the air, the atmosphere, the sky.  And, it is a realm as in "The Kingdom OF heaven."
     
    Elijah was transported through the air, the sky, to a different location.  Later Elijah wrote a letter from a different location where he was living (II Chron. 21:12).  As for Moses and Elijah in the so-called "mount of transfiguration," it was not a physical, literal event:  "And behold, there APPEARED unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him...and as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead"  (Matt. 17:3 & 9).  It was a VISION.  It never "literally" happened. It is a VISION, not unlike a dream that takes place in one's mind, NOT LITERALLY in the flesh.  Besides, Heb. 11 tells us clearly that Enoch (Ver. 5), Abraham (Verse 08), Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and MOSES (Vers. 20-24) "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES..." (Ver. 13).
     
    God be with you,
    Ray



Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.msg47445.html#msg47445):

Dear Ricky:  You have to keep your emails shorter and to the point--just ask your question. It is not necessary to explain all of the reasons why you are asking, and what you do understand, etc.  You say that Heb. 11:5 is "uninformative" with relation to Enoch. Actually, Heb. 11 is extremely informative. You must read past verse 5, however.  Also you statement that Enoch was "taken up" is unscriptural. Nowhere do the Scriptures tell us that Enoch was "taken up."  Enoch was translated so that he was not to see death at the location God translated him from. Translated merely mean to be "transported" from one location to another. The same was true for Elijah. He was taken a little more dramatically in a chariot, however, he too was merely transported from one location to another. After this incident, we are told that Elijah wrote a letter (II Chron. 21:12), and assuredly he did not write a letter from God's throne room in heaven.

Likewise, Enoch DIED.  The Scriptures plainly tell us this:   

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Who are the "these" that "all died" in this verse?  Why they are the ones mentioned in the verses above:  Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah.

As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28).  And just when DID they see this?  Answer--next verse:

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?"  No. Read verse 9:

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

It was all a "VISION."  It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).

Hope this helps your understanding. The Scriptures do not contradict their own truths.

God be with you,

Ray



Hope this helps,

Marques
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gmik

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Re: If the dead are dead how do you explain Matt. 17?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2010, 08:36:15 PM »

Good Question.

And good responses from Ray.

doesn't hediscuss this in something on his website?  Sorry, I just remember reading it.
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wisdom

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Re: If the dead are dead how do you explain Matt. 17?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 10:41:52 PM »

Thanks for the replys they have been very helpful, I have been blessed by the teachings of Ray Smith and the assistance of all from this form I am very grateful. Blessings to all!!!!
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