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Author Topic: "open theism"  (Read 5337 times)

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lauriellen

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"open theism"
« on: June 03, 2010, 08:00:39 PM »

can anyone tell me if Ray has addressed this particular issue?....i have read "Does a Soveriegn God Change" over and over....and it makes sense to me...i had never heard of 'open theism' until today...i was having a discussion with someone who believes in it and asked me to read an article explaining what it is....
i didn't realize that i believed in the 'theology' of open theism without even knowing it before discovering this site and what is taught here....i know what Ray says in the article "does a Soveriegn God change?" is directly oposite of what they believe....
i feel like God is shaking me up alittle here, maybe making sure i know WHY i believe.....it can all be so confusing sometimes....i have been glued to my computer all day e-swording, researching and it all is beginning to swirl around in my head...deep in my mind i believe God does indeed control all and has predermined all, but there are SO MANY scriptures that at face value sound like the future is not necessarily already determined on some points...can anyone else help me out here? please pray that God will give me wisdom & understanding on this important subject...
thanks,
lauri
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Vangie

  • Guest
Re: "open theism"
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2010, 09:45:41 PM »

Hey Lauri,
You know, square circles were thought up by someone but that doesn't mean they exist.  After a quick google search of your subject term, it seems to me that "open theism" is a similar oxymoron.  You can't have it both ways. 

God is in control of all--he is omniscient and sovereign.  Where we are in understanding this is all relative to our own individual perspectives--which God is totally aware and in control of.  Think about it, he knows what we're going to be thinking about in say, 25 minutes time.  25 minutes from now, what we think fulfills his plan.  We're but dust (not butt dust,  ;D as the joke goes), we're just clay in his hands--kind of like actors in a film.

Letting go of the free will thing is so hard; I'm soooo still fighting with it too.  No way I can try to explain to a non-believer or say what I've just said here.  I hope you find some peace and understanding as you deal with figuring this one out!  But you know that God will see you through.

Love in Christ,
Vangie

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lauriellen

  • Guest
Re: "open theism"
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2010, 10:39:54 PM »

the problem that i am having is, i want to be thorough in my study. i dont want to be someone who just 'casually' believes this or that....i want to be sure what i believe is right and know why i believe it. but i am not a smart person...when the topic gets really technical, i am just lost...they may as well be writing in greek, for all i understand of it!...i want so bad to understand and know God....sometimes i get so discouraged because i just don't understand so many things....and many 'out there' can take any scripture and twist it around and convince you that the oposite is true...and they use these big fancy words and get so technical, it seems sometimes impossible that i will ever be able to understand it all......i am so afraid of being lead astray...i just want the truth, but it isn't that simple....=/
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: "open theism"
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2010, 10:52:12 PM »


Hi Lauri,

Open Theism (a.k.a. Neotheism or Open view of God): A belief that God is not omniscient. In particular, God does not know what will happen in the future with precision.

That is simply the belief in man's free will, people just can not let go of this idea and is at the very heart of the beast within, that is that God does not know what man may do, that we choose things for ourself. But what about these Scripture.

Pro 20:24 A man's steps are ordered by the LORD; how then can man understand his way?

Pro 16:33  The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
this goes directly against Scripture.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

It says God is "declaring the end from the beginning," that absolutely states that He already knows the end and so then it is just common sense that He must know all things in between too, for the end to be as He knows it will be. That is a totally solid Scripture, but here are a few more that state that ALL things are of God.

2Co 5:18  Now all things are of God...

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Rom 11:36  For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Heb 2:10  For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things...

All these Scriptures plus many more state God's total sovereignty, I just don't see how anybody can deny that in the face of all these Scriptures.

Now the idea that some Scripture indicate that God does changes His mind, it only appears that way from our perspective, but actually that's the way He always intended these situations to work out. Here are couple of places Ray speaks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3720.0 -------

Now one of the attributes of God is that He never changes, which may sound like somewhat of a contradiction, because there wasn’t a universe and now there is.  What made Him change His mind from not having a universe, to wanting a universe?  Well you can not really say He changed His mind.  Now when the scripture says He changed His mind, like in Numbers 23:19, where it says, God doesn’t repent (be sorry, repent, change mind, avenge).  He does not change His mind, it doesn’t mean He doesn’t do anything.  It means that He Himself does not change His mind or what He is, that never changes.

1 Samuel 15:19  “God does not change His mind.”
Malachi 3:16, “I am the LORD, I change NOT.”
James 1:6, “…the Father of lights, with Whom is no variableness.”
Romans 11: 29, “For the gift and calling of God are without repentance [Gk. irrevocable].”
Heb. 13:08, “Jesus Christ the same [Gk. ‘same One; same Self’] yesterday, today, and forever.”
It is paramount that God never change, therein lies the ultimate stability of eternity - GOD WILL NEVER EVER CHANGE.  One doesn’t change total perfection.  Creation will change, albeit God will never change.

Phil. 2:5, “Let this mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus.”  Why?  1 Cor. 1:10; Phil. 2:2; Phil. 3:6; 1 Peter 4:1; Eph. 4:1-6 --- UNITY; no divisions.

We read these things, God doesn’t change, but nobody thinks about it.  It’s very important that God does never change and will never change.  Why do you think that’s important?  Would it be better if He was flexible and changed a little bit?  You don’t improve perfection.
v
So God knows there can never be any thing more perfect than He is.  And that’s where He introduces Himself to us.  We are introduced to a being who is perfect.
 
There’s nothing that says He can’t build a kingdom and make it bigger and bigger.  But it does say that He is perfect, and He doesn’t change.  And that is the most solid and stable thing we could hang our hopes and dreams on.  Our God will never change and that He is already perfect, wow.

Now the Bible does use physical analogies, like a rock.  He is like a rock, solid, immovable and unchangeable.
1 Cor. 10:4, “…and that Rock was Christ.”  It says that all drank of that spiritual drink and they all followed that Rock and that Rock was Christ.  So God in the physical analogy of things is a Rock, He is unchangeable because He reached perfection and you don’t change perfection.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2595.0 --------

You are ASSUMING that when God says He will do one thing because of something, that if He later does not do that one thing because something HAS CHANGED, that this is proof that GOD CHANGED HIS MIND.  That is nonsense. It only appears to you that God has changed His mind because you have not yet learned, neither do you believe that "God Who...calls those things which be NOT as who they WERE" (Rom. 4:17), and "[God] declaring the END from the BEGINNING...." (Isa. 46:10).

If when God told Moses that He would destroy Israel, He really thought THAT HE WOULD destroy Israel, then He would have PROVED HIS OWN SELF TO BE WRONG, in that He did NOT know the beginning [I WILL destroy Israel] from the end [I will NOT destroy Israel]. Now can you see the truth that God has never CHANGED HIS MIND, because, "I [God] change NOT" (Malichi 3:6), and because God never sins, God never lies, God never makes a mistake, and God's purpose is always perfect and never can be improved upon.

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: June 07, 2010, 10:24:41 AM by Kat »
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lauriellen

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Re: "open theism"
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2010, 11:19:13 PM »

thanks for your replies....sometimes i 'think' i understand something and have it down pat....then along comes something that 'shakes' my world again, and i get scared and start questioning myself...(am i sure i am understanding this correctly?...could i be wrong?, ect) ....i hate that i do that....i wish i God would make me more mature....=/
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judith collier

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Re: "open theism"
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2010, 06:17:22 PM »

lauriellen, if you knew how many times my thought processes and beliefs fell apart and were rearranged again after coming to this site you would think I was unstable. Well, I was, but the glue (God's word and the Spirit) is set now and holding much better. I still have problems with a few things but I will wait until God reveals it to me, until then I let it go. Not to say I don't think about things or still seek answers but I don't get shook as much.
Sometimes my head felt like it would explode but I have learned when it comes to God my  mind is of no comparison. If it is confusing and you lose your peace forget it for now.
love, judy
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lauriellen

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Re: "open theism"
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2010, 10:42:41 AM »

thank you judy....that really helps to know i am not the only one feeling that way..... ;D  i appreciate all your imput on this forum. you are a blessing
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Phil3:10

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Re: "open theism"
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2010, 03:00:26 PM »

Lauriellen,
I thank GOD that HE has you asking, seeking and growing in the nurture and admonition of HIM who is every thing. To truly know HIM is a lifetime experience and I don't personally think any of us will every know 10% of HIS greatness and glory. However, seeking to know HIM, is the greatest achievement any of us will ever have in this carnal life. I think GOD is most happy when we are asking questions and not accepting the conclusions of others. HE has promised to each that seeks HIM truthfully the truths that we can handle. The toughest truth for me to handle is that HE is every thing, HE is in total control, and that HE guides my life where HE wants it to go. Real faith is to seek and trust HIM for every thing in your life.
As always, Kat has given you some wonderful scriptures and Ray's teachings that GOD is perfect, HE never makes a mistake, and HIS purposes can never be improved upon.
In HIM,
Phil 3:10
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lauriellen

  • Guest
Re: "open theism"
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2010, 06:13:46 PM »

thank you phil 3:10.....very good advice........i REALLY appreciate it...=)...i have been reviewing lots of scriptures/articles and i am feeling alot better about this already....doesn't hurt to review & sharpen our understanding every once in a while i guess!...=)
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