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[zee325]

Would someone explain the 2 words used G3592 Parousia and G2064 Erchomai ? The Christian world calls the Lord's coming again Parousia, some even based the secret rapture theory on it. I am new to study aid and before today I did not know G2064 is used, too. What is the difference?

[GinaMilan]

Hello and thanks for your question.

I did a search for Strong's Number: g3592, but that number doesn't correspond to parousia, unless I'm missing something (I'm new to study aids myself).  

(Source: blueletterbible)

Strong's g3592:  "Greek: hode."

Vine's Expository:
"an adverb signifying

(a) "here" (of place), e.g., Mat 12:6; Mar 9:1; used with the neuter plural of the article, Col 4:9, "(all) things (that are done) here," lit., "(all) the (things) here;"

(b) in Mat 24:23, hode is used in both parts, hence the RV, "Lo, here (is the Christ, or) Here;" in Mar 13:21 hode is followed by ekei, "there." The word is used metaphorically in the sense of "in this circumstance," or connection, in 1Cr 4:2; Rev 13:10, 18; 14:12; 17:9.   See HITHER.

G2064 Erchomai

Vines Expository:

Come, Came (See Also Coming):

the most frequent verb, denoting either "to come, or to go," signifies the act, in contrast with heko (see No. 22, below), which stresses the arrival, as, e.g., "I am come and am here," Jhn 8:42; Hbr 10:9.

See BRING, B, Note (1), FALL, GO, GROW, LIGHT, PASS, RESORT.

Have you had an opportunity to read Ray's paper, "Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory"? 
Let me give you a link.  It explains a lot.  http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm

[GinaMilan]

Oh, I see.  I can empathize with you.  It's very difficult to un-learn something, especially if we've had a sort of kinship or special bond with those who did the teaching.  May God bless you as you seek His perfect will.  I'll keep ya in prayer!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi zee325


Yes, “parousia” means “presence” rather than “coming”. The word “coming” is from the Greek “Eleusis” as in Acts 7 : 52.  1 Thes. 2:19 should read: “for who is our expectation, or joy, or wrath of glorying? Or is it not even you, in FRONT of our Lord Jesus, in His PRESENCE?”

Although it is true that Jesus has already come to us as a “Comforter,” and we are “IN CHRIST”, nonetheless, it does not yet appear what we shall be like when He returns to us and for us : 1 John 3:P1-2. ~ L Ray Smith


Arc

[Kat]

Hi Zee,

Mat 24:27  for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man; (YLT)

I think that the church put all the Scripture that refer to Christ's return/coming/presence or whichever as a future event. We as believers have to realize that Christ has come to us NOW! That's why Jesus went around saying the kingdom is at hand.

Mar 1:15  and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

As soon as He died and returned to heaven and the Comforter became available, that would be the representative of the kingdom that comes into believers now. "For as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west" this is a very quick thing, just as is how Christ appear to us.

Rev 3:11  Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

But His return to raise those that have died and reward all the believers will be a quick and sudden thing as well.

Rev 22:12  "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

So Jesus' return is really now for believers, but there is a future resurrection when He appears. It will not be in secret, but every eye will see Him (Rev 1:7) and His rule and reign will begin over physical people on earth as well as throughout the heavens.

Mat 25:31  "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

When He does return of course all believers will rejoice, but it will be a terrifying thing for those who are deceived and blind and do not know Him and do not understand what is happening.

Luke 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
v. 26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
v. 27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Rev 19:11  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12  His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v. 14  And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
v. 15  Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
       KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[GinaMilan]

Jude vs. 1:14 (KJV)  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Dear Zee,

Is the Lord literally coming with literally ten thousands of His saints?  Jesus said, "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life" and therefore they are spiritually discerned.

Jude 1:14 is not talking about a "secret" or a future "rapture" or "snatching away."  Please read the rest of the chapter and see if it doesn't become crystal clear that Jude is talking about the here and now all down throughout all the ages:

 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

 18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

And yet we know by reading John that even back then, 2000 years ago, it is the last time:

1 John 2:18:  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

I hope that helps.

p.s.  The next movie I'm renting, God willing, is Son of Rambow.  It sounds hilarious!  Have you seen it?  It got many good reviews.  I'd never heard of the Plymouth Brethren until you mentioned them, and when I ran a search, I found a comedy about it.  So, thanks!  haha

[Dave in Tenn]

p.s.  The next movie I'm renting, God willing, is Son of Rambow.  It sounds hilarious!  Have you seen it?  It got many good reviews.  I'd never heard of the Plymouth Brethren until you mentioned them, and when I ran a search, I found a comedy about it.  So, thanks!  haha

Sorry to cut in.  I saw it a few years ago--before B-T--and enjoyed it very much.  It had a good underlying theme and was quite touching, though I can't remember exactly why I liked it so much.

OK, carry on with the good stuff. 

[Kat]

Hi Zee,

Well to your first point was Rev 12:5  "She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron."  This is referring to Jesus Christ, who most assuredly is at the throne of God and it is Christ who will rule with an "rod of iron."

Rev 19:15  And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16  And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

1Th 4:17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.

There must be a gathering together of the Elect, both those alive and those resurrected, at Christ's return and I think the clouds that surround the earth and are in the physical realm, but are not on the earth is an appropriate place. They will "meet the Lord in the air," and that will start the reign and rule of Christ on the earth. And yes they will remain with Him from then on, "always."

I think that Christ's ascension into the clouds was merely a way that He choose to make His final exit, instead of just vanishing out of sight as He did at other times. And with the angels comment, they knew He would not returning to visit with them, not until the end.

Clouds seem to be used in Scripture as a physical, but ethereal representation from heaven, they're symbolic of heavenly things.

Eze 1:28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
 
Mat 17:5  While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.

Rev 10:1  And I saw another mighty angel coming down out of the heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.

Isa 4:5  Then the LORD will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day,

Psa 78:14  In the daytime also He led them with the cloud,
       And all the night with a light of fire.

Isa 19:1  The burden of Egypt. Lo, Jehovah is riding on a swift thick cloud...

2Ch 5:13 "For He is good,
       For His mercy endures forever,"
       that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud,

Job 26:8  He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
       Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
Job 26:9  He covers the face of His throne,
       And spreads His cloud over it.

Job 37:15  Do you know when God dispatches them,
       And causes the light of His cloud to shine?
Job 37:16  Do you know how the clouds are balanced,
       Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. It's certainly not easy going through the transition, but He needs to strip away the filthy rags from church that we were clothed in and get us into the white garments of righteousness. It is a process that takes time, I'll be praying for you.

Isa 64:6  But we are all like an unclean thing,
       And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
       We all fade as a leaf,
       And our iniquities, like the wind,
       Have taken us away.

Rev 3:5  He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

[GinaMilan]

Thanks Gina, I have never heard of it. I will rent it and see for myself. I will let you know from an insider point of view.

Alright!  We can compare notes.

And no, I do not wear a head cover but many of the women there do especially elderly ones. It has some silly stuff but I was very fond of it, because it does not have a clergy system, no full time or part time employees or clergy, everyone helps out, no tithing, it does not even dwell on eternal punishment.

Well, I can tell from the what you've written that there must be kind people as well.  Besides, it's not like they have everything totally backwards, and furthermore, all churches everywhere have some of the truth.  And something told me you didn't wear a scarf, but even if you did, what's the difference between that and literally breaking bread, literally washing feet, literally being baptized -- it's all the "physical/outward" we've been in to, and to the carnal-minded, physical, earthy person, it only makes sense that they [we] would find gratification in those things because they are those which can be physically touched and seen with natural eyes.  Don't you think?

But the human free will screwed up everything.

Totally!  I'm relieved to know that I don't have free will and "thus far shall I come and no farther,"  ya know?  Geesh, it was scary to come to the realization that  I wasn't perfect and never could be on my own, but they tell you that must be good on your own.   It was terrifying to think that I was out of God's control. "He must be so angry with me! I bet I've really made Him mad this time!" I would think to myself.

If you did not hear about the Plymouth Brethren maybe you heard about John Darby. The Brethren had great influence on Watchman Nee in China, who is considered the founder and father of this particular church and many of its local churches. It denounces denominations but I am afraid it has become its own denomination.

Yeah, I think it always was it's own denomination -- if you want to know the truth; I mean, how can a group who believes they have free will really understand the "deep things" of God?  The best we can do under the the free will delusion is to make up rules that seem right to us  Haha -- rules which we MUST follow because we have to in order to be saved -- it just makes no sense.  It reminds me of a quote I read on line:  "We MUST believe in free will, we have no choice!"  Isn't that the silliest thing you've ever heard?  And that was supposedly a quote from a great mind.  No kidding.

Speaking of the church I need prayers and support. This week is the first week I come out of there, not just spiritually but physically as well. It is very hard for me.   After many years of enjoying the thought of being a good Christian and right with God, all of a sudden I found myself poor naked wretched and blind. I also feel like I am uprooted from the people I love, from all that is familiar and comfortable. I am losing sleep this week.

Zee, I wasn't heavily involved in church, and believe it or not, my family was not Catholic; I was raised southern Baptist, but we rarely went to church.  There were people in the family who had spent considerably more time in church, so that they were entrenched in the views of the church and so they brought those views and teachings home to the rest of the family.  It was common knowledge and flat out accepted by all in our house there was a God and He was horrible and would punish wicked people, but He was love, oh yeah.  He loved us soooo much!  So even though I didn't attend outside churches regularly or often at all, I was still brought up with the knowledge of hellfire and damnation -- all that junk because of the things my older siblings would bring home from their "coffee houses" and churches.  So, I guess you could say I attended the "Church of My Older Brothers and Sisters" -- and that's why I said it's hard to UN-learn things especially when we have a kinship or bond with those doing the teaching.  Seriously.  I thought they had all the answers-what could I know?  I am the 7th of 9 children.  I was low man on the totem pole, I was there for the ride, I had no voice.  I got pushed around and taken advantage of a LOT.  And even though I knew it was wrong the way they were treating me, I had no choice but to learn to adapt and adapt I did -- and very well, if you catch my drift.  I was pitiful. I loved and practically worshiped my brothers and sisters, but hated them and was jealous of them at the same time!  I wanted to talk like them, I wanted to be them.  And, I apologize if I said too much, I just wanted to show you that I can relate to some of what you've experienced).

I look back and ask God what have You done to me this past 2 months? All my confidences are gone, O Lord how do I know that this time I am right with You?

It's a painful struggle in the beginning, there is no doubt.  I will pray that God comforts you and protects you-- it is very, very hard to say goodbye to those things we are comfortable with -- it's hard to leave those things we are familiar with.  Sort of like the devil we know ....   It's a fear of the unknown, but look at all the information you have at your fingertips that you can read pretty much at your leisure.  You won't always feel so alone and confused.  I guarantee it, especially if you beg God  for understanding.  He will give you understanding.  I remember asking Ray one time in an emai years agol, "Why do you beg God? -- I mean, sons don't need to beg their Fathers for anything."  How does that song go?   "How wrong I waaaaaasss! How wrong I was waaaaaas!...."  haha.   It's treasure in a field, it's not sitting there on the surface--there's a struggle and a quite a fight to get at it.  What was I thinking?  Duh-yup-silly-carnal minded little woman.  I'm not very smart, but I know that a Good Father would never torture people in ways that are totally insane.

Anyways, my church people are very concerned about me. Knowing them they will try to "save me" the best they can. I pray to God that I do not get too many phone calls. I do not want what to tell them. I just want to be left alone to my studies for the time being. Please pray with me.

I know how that can be, believe me.  Let's definitely pray about that.   It's good to be amongst other believers and chat and act silly and learn from God  and each other.  But the best fellowship we have is when we are alone with the Lord --  so it makes perfect sense that you would feel that way, Zee.

God Bless you, Zee.  I'm glad you're here.  Now go rent the movie so we can compare notes!  Hurry!! hehe  Just kidding.  Take your time.

Love,
Gina

[Kat]

Hi Zee,

I look at more of Rev. 12, and in 13 where it talks about the "man child" you are right about it referring to the Elect, it threw me off in verse 5 where it talked about ruling with a rod of iron. So I did a search of Ray articles and here is an excerpt about "man child."

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------

Next notice that:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).

Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hope I did confuse you more.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[soberxp]

Hi Zee,

Well to your first point was Rev 12:5  "She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron."  This is referring to Jesus Christ, who most assuredly is at the throne of God and it is Christ who will rule with an "rod of iron."

Rev 19:15  And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
v. 16  And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

1Th 4:17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord.

There must be a gathering together of the Elect, both those alive and those resurrected, at Christ's return and I think the clouds that surround the earth and are in the physical realm, but are not on the earth is an appropriate place. They will "meet the Lord in the air," and that will start the reign and rule of Christ on the earth. And yes they will remain with Him from then on, "always."

I think that Christ's ascension into the clouds was merely a way that He choose to make His final exit, instead of just vanishing out of sight as He did at other times. And with the angels comment, they knew He would not returning to visit with them, not until the end.

Clouds seem to be used in Scripture as a physical, but ethereal representation from heaven, they're symbolic of heavenly things.

Eze 1:28  Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
 
Mat 17:5  While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.

Rev 10:1  And I saw another mighty angel coming down out of the heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire.

Isa 4:5  Then the LORD will create over the whole site of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day,

Psa 78:14  In the daytime also He led them with the cloud,
       And all the night with a light of fire.

Isa 19:1  The burden of Egypt. Lo, Jehovah is riding on a swift thick cloud...

2Ch 5:13 "For He is good,
       For His mercy endures forever,"
       that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud,

Job 26:8  He binds up the water in His thick clouds,
       Yet the clouds are not broken under it.
Job 26:9  He covers the face of His throne,
       And spreads His cloud over it.

Job 37:15  Do you know when God dispatches them,
       And causes the light of His cloud to shine?
Job 37:16  Do you know how the clouds are balanced,
       Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. It's certainly not easy going through the transition, but He needs to strip away the filthy rags from church that we were clothed in and get us into the white garments of righteousness. It is a process that takes time, I'll be praying for you.

Isa 64:6  But we are all like an unclean thing,
       And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
       We all fade as a leaf,
       And our iniquities, like the wind,
       Have taken us away.

Rev 3:5  He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

cloud..................................