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[judith collier]

Kat, yes, and I was just thinking how very embedded traditions are that even if something was presented that could not be denied people will not see. Truly seeking is hard work and mind boggling.
They do love Jesus though and are very kind but rarely do they step out of their culture which can be an idol.
 Didn't God say somewhere, "I hate your traditions"    Judy

[Samson]

Kat, yes, and I was just thinking how very embedded traditions are that even if something was presented that could not be denied people will not see. Truly seeking is hard work and mind boggling.
They do love Jesus though and are very kind but rarely do they step out of their culture which can be an idol.
 Didn't God say somewhere, "I hate your traditions"    Judy

Hi Judy,

           I've wanted to respond to some of the recent comments that took place in the last few days, but I am working three 12 hour shifts this work week. It's all true that unless God opens our Spiritual eyes, removing the scales, providing the CAUSE(S) leading to Our understanding, we won't understand these truths, regardless of all the knowledge we've accumulated through study(examining Greek Words, Hebrew Words, etc.). However, in at least some cases(mine), knowing the accurate meaning of an important Greek Word(example: Aionios- Eonian, Age-lasting, literally meaning "pertaining to the ages," usually mistranslated Eternal, Everlasting) might be the CAUSE in the process that God is using to correctly understanding God's Word, because in reality, either Aionios means "Endless Duration" or it means " a period of time having a beginning and an ending." The correct or incorrect meaning of any word changes alot of things, especially in the case of Aionios. I'm just using Aionios as an example, because it's probably the most important word that should be understood correctly. Just like a Saved condition is a process(Read Ray's article: How hard is getting Saved), so is receiving the correct understanding of Bible Truths. I don't understand every detail of the information Ray provides through His articles, I know the basics, but I'm still learning and asking God to open my eyes wider in order to learn more.

         I'm mentioning all of the above in question regarding the Greek Orthodox Church knowing the Greek Language and Why they don't know the correct meanings of these Words. My above comments are sorta of a "leading up to" or preparation for what I'm about to say. Firstly, the words of all languages gradually change in meanings over the years. The Greek Language of Today is not the same as it was in the First Three Centuries, back in Jesus day, they spoke in the common(Koine) of their day, it was a universally used language of that day in the Roman Empire according to Alexander Thomson(Whence Eternity ! How Eternity slipped In). This is definitely the case when comparing the English Language of Today with the English Language of Past Time Periods. Up until 1000 A.D the English or Anglo Saxon Expression Spelt Ece meant a period of time having a beginning and an ending. When John Wycliffe wrote his English translation using Jerome's Latin Vulgate in translating to English, he read the Latin Word Aeternus and mistakenly this word became the English Eternal. If He had translated directly from a Greek Manuscript, He probably would have properly translated "Aionios" to the English Word Eonian. Remember, in English, up until 1000 A.D. there was no word that meant Eternal(Endless Duration).

            Some recent comments mention Bible Scholars or Theologians being blind, although that's true, there are at least some Greek "Experts," IMO probably more than some that know about these correct meanings of Greek Words, but their station in Life(prestige), their Peer group of other University Professors, their desire to control the Masses(average church goers) and of course, don't forget THE MONEY(cushy materialistic lifestyles) are CAUSES leading to not accepting and officially advocating these correct meanings. Sometime in the latter par of the fourth century, there were even Universalists that privately knew and believed " the eventual Salvation of All," but publicly taught the masses Endless Punishment(From: Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine during the First Five Centuries By John Wesley Hanson). I have no doubt, it's the same situation Today. We all Know that Satan is a Liar and a Murderer from the beginning and so are His Angels and Ministers. When someone tells a Lie and tries to deceive others, that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't know what the Truth is. Below, I copied and pasted a few excerpts from Ray's Article: Which Bible Translation is Best, His words are in Blue, to help add to some of these points about language written above.

ruth be known, millions who believe that the King James, for example, is a perfect inerrant translation have not a clue as to what is involved in translating from one language to another.  It may be possible to translate a few specific words almost perfectly from one language to another. But once we get into whole sentences, paragraphs, pages, and whole books (written by different people over a period of many centuries, in ancient languages), the task is almost daunting. When considering the enormity of the task, I believe most translators of most Versions have done a satisfactory job.

That is not to say there aren't problems with all Versions. But thank God there are many copies of the Greek, and some copies of the Hebrew manuscripts which makes it possible to come pretty close to the mind of God in most areas of the Scriptures.

 can certainly agree and sympathize with almost everything said by these truthful and candid Translators of the Authorized Version, with one exception. Although they believe that "Variety is the spice of life," I would rather suggest that "Honesty is always the best policy." I certainly prefer a translation that is consistent and meticulously accurate over one that has great variety, and reads smoothly with a poetic and melodious rhythm.

With that said, my personal teaching, preaching, and study Bible is nonetheless, the King James Version. But the primary reason for this is that more people are more familiar with King James than any other Version. Sadly, for many unlearned students of God’s Word, to quote from any Version other than the King James, is to not be quoting Scripture at all. Not to worry, one can learn the Truths of God from ANY translation once God opens one’s mind to the things of the spirit.

But these two "additions" to God’s Word pale into little or no significance compared to the ONE GIANT INEXCUSABLE, "adding to" God’s word wherein the Translators turn Greek "aions" (periods of time as short as a few years) into English "eternities." This one gross error has turned into the most devastating botch of translating in the history of the world. Which consequently brought about the most damnable heresy in the history of the world—"Eternal Punishment."

Early translations of the Greek Scriptures into English did not use the words "everlasting," "evermore," "for ever and ever" or "eternal" in their versions. Maybe the very oldest English related tongue was the Ancient Gothic Version by Wulfila, which was a language spoken about 350 AD, closely akin to the Old German and Old English spoken at that time. This version translated from the Greek, as well as later Old English versions between 680 and 995 translated from the Latin, did not use any words that meant "everlasting" or "eternal."

Wiclif’ finished his translation in 1382. A hundred and fifty years later came Tyndale, then Coverdale (1535), Cranmer’s (1539), the Genevan (1557), Rheims (1582), and finally The King James Authorized (1611). It was in these well-known English translations that the words "forever and ever" "everlasting" and "eternal" come before us.

However, not all English Versions perverted and corrupted the words having reference to time into words that now stand for eternity, but have nothing to do with time at all. Here are a few. I use the first three quite regularly, but, I am not recommending you buy any of them.

The solution to better understanding the Scriptures and the will of God is not solely a matter of a better translation or a perfect translation. The early church had NO translations—they had the original Greek signatures, and copies of these signatures in the Greek language, which was universally understood throughout much of the Roman Empire—even Egyptians spoke Greek. And yet, the first century was a time of MASS APOSTASY in the church. Here is Scriptural proof:

    "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

    "HOLD FAST THE FORM OF SOUND WORDS, which you have heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. That good thing, which was committed unto you keep by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us. This you know, that ALL THEY WHICH ARE IN ASIA BE TURNED AWAY FROM ME…" (II Tim. 1:13-15).


I want to make one more comment, but I will use another Post for that, Thanks Samson.

[Samson]

A brief(Ha Ha, no wise cracks,   continuation of my last Post),

My previous Post was directed to Judy, Kat, John from Kentucky, George, Duane; etc. Don't know how to box in quotes and put them on one Post, have tried it before and messed up.

I have a copy of Dr. Strongs Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary and use it from time to time, Ray occasionally uses it too. I noticed that almost in every case when He defines Words that don't have any bearing on any of His cherished Orthodox Doctrines, the definitions are quite accurate and He sticks to just defining the Word with some Bible quotations for examples. However whenever it involves a word that relates to an Orthodox Doctrine(The Trinity, Eternal Punishment, Hell, Immortality of the Soul, etc.), then He gives a interpretive implied reasoning explanation to justify this particular meaning.

   FOR Duane: Interestingly, when it comes to Aionios, I discovered this inconsistency in His Bible Dictionary, read below:

Page 924, #166 Aionios, the adjective, describes duration, either undefined, but NOT ENDLESS(Caps mine for emphasis).

     Then, He has other meanings like perpetual, world began, everlasting and Eternal. Now lets reason on this. How can the adjective of the Noun Aion which means "An Age"  and Dr. Strong admits this, mean duration, but not endless, also mean endless in other places. The adjective of a Noun can't have a totally opposite meaning, as Ray has explained.

     Also, regarding the concept about Scholars and Ministers knowing these truths, but purposely advocating Lies to mislead the people. For some information supporting this, Read the Off topic Discussion Thread from January 9, 2008 Entitled: Pagan Doctrine of the Soul By Dr. Ernest Martin. He was a friend of Ray's from the Worldwide Church of God, who also left. Anyway, this thread touches on the fact that the Religious Leaders teach one set of beliefs(falsehoods) for the masses(churchgoers) and another set of beliefs privately for themselves.

                                   Kind Regards, Samson.

[Duane]

Samson...thank you one again for your your well thought out explanation and the time it took to organize and type it~
Did you ever get tested for inclusion in an international group of people called MENZA?  They are made up of the top 10%
intellectuals in the world.  DENZA is the top 2%.  I think you may qualify for atleast MENZA.
One would think this was a "snob club" but it is made up of everyday people except they have high IQ's , as displayed by you,
Ray, Kat, Arc and others.  NO- I'm not a member--quite a few "Q's" short!  (ha!)
(I'm sorry if my side question was a misuse of the web-site --but I considered this a thread.)  

[judith collier]

Wow Samson, will try to find that discussion.
Now, I do not have a clue what this bible vs. means, 11 Tim. 1:13-15. I am just curious. "all ---Asia be turned away from me"
Thanks, Judy

[Samson]

Wow Samson, will try to find that discussion.
Now, I do not have a clue what this bible vs. means, 11 Tim. 1:13-15. I am just curious. "all ---Asia be turned away from me"
Thanks, Judy

Judy,

        Ray used that Scripture(2 Tim. 1:13-15) to support the fact that a Massive Apostasy or falling away from the Truth of Sound Words was already taking place in the first Century A.D.

                               Kind Regards, Samson.

[judith collier]

Thanks Samson!

[acomplishedartis]

I was just wondering why the Greek Orthodox believe as they do....  They  study the scriptures in Greek.  

The correct or incorrect meaning of any word changes alot of things,

Firstly, the words of all languages gradually change in meanings over the years. The Greek Language of Today is not the same as it was in the First Three Centuries,

To the question ''why the Greek Orthodox believe as they do...?'' or at list why do they believe in hell IF THEY DON'T HAVE A WRONG TRANSLATION? (Or do they have one?). I have heard these questions from people whom want to defend their sick-precious hell doctrine.

Has the word Hades gradually change from it's meaning over the years?

Does modern Bible translations have dare to translate (from a king James on Latin or English) back to Greek again?

Does many orthodox Greek pastor's whom have study more the scriptures, consciously trick their followers to believe these doctrines, maybe using the words 'lake of fire' is how they teach about a place of torture?

I remember I once found more good info about these issue, here on the forum, but I haven't been able to find it. Someone here should refute and explain the issue for good.



Here is a quote of one of Rays emails:


If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Ps 16:10 & Acts 2:27).

[santikos]

 oh oh, i always thought that the soul and body was one and the same. i always though we were just spirit and body. i must study more to learn the difference. i just thought the soul was our body. then when we die we (the soul) goes to the ground to rot, the spirit to God, then we will be given a new body (soul) and our spirit returns to our new body. i am new here there is just so much to learn. one question: if our spirit returns to God then is it safe to say that people go to heaven with God when they die? ( i do not believe this, but i am just confused about the spirit returning to God)