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Author Topic: God, the Father  (Read 16891 times)

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gohaley

  • Guest
God, the Father
« on: May 29, 2010, 08:07:28 PM »

Hi people, 

The bible says, the nobody in history has seen or heard God the Father.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time...

John 5:37
And the Father Who sends Me, He has testified concerning Me. Neither have you ever heard his voice nor a perception of Him have you seen.

Do these verses apply to the spiritual realm also. Do/can angels literally communicate with God the Father or do they only converse and deal with Yahwah. Job 1:6, 2:1, I Kings 22:19, II Chr18:18 etc. 

I know it would follow the same principle as John 14:9, where if an angel is speaking to Yahwah they are technically speaking to God the Father. But, is God the Father spirit/invisible in the spiritual realm as well as this material realm or is he only invisible in this realm? Any biblical indications would be appreciated. 

(I know this question is neither here nor there and the answer will make no difference to my life. It just popped into my thoughts this morning and i think it's an interesting concept.)

Peace Greg     
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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 08:19:03 PM »

Not to pull a Clinton but .....what exactly do you mean by the word "see"

The physical wolrd is perishable, reality is in the Spriit realm.
 
When All are in ALL .....we are one with the Father.....so what is there to "see"

There will be No need for eye or mirrors or anything else...

Does a drop in the ocean even care about its own idenity anymore?

Joh 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


beloved 
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aqrinc

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 08:43:03 PM »

Hi Greg,

Based on the translation you are reading, it will read: No one MKJV, CLV, GNB, Rotherham and others or ASV, DRB, KJV, RV, Webster and others, read No man. It appears the Scripture here is speaking about humanity, because we are physical.

Strongs definition below:
G3762
οὐδείς
oudeis
oo-dice'
Including the feminine οὐδεμία oudemia
oo-dem-ee'-ah and the neuter οὐδέν ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.

george :).

« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 03:55:59 AM by aqr »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2010, 12:43:53 AM »


Hi Greg,

Here is a section from the 2006 Mobile Conference 'The Father's Will.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960 -----

WHO IS THE FATHER?

There is a big misconception, in the whole Christian world They read the OT and it talks about God, the Lord, and Jehovah, and they think this is God the Father... it is not, this is not The Father.  Few Christian alive understand, until Jesus Christ came no one on earth knew anything about this entity called God the Father Nobody ever heard of God the Father, they heard of God, they thought God was the one who dealt with Israel, the prophets, Moses, and Adam and Eve in the OT, that’s God. We learned that was not God the Father. He was there, but not specifically referred to in most of those scripture.  Paul says there are many gods, pagans have their gods...

“But to US there is but ONE GOD THE FATHER, OF Whom are all things [all things?], and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him. Howbeit, there is not in every man this knowledge…” (1 Cor. 8:5-7)

The word 'things', in this verse should be, ‘those’ not things, it’s talking about people, beings.
Who has that knowledge, let’s analyze this. I’m amazed at how much we can learn from so little. The Bible does not give 20 page explanations of different things But there are little words and phrases, if you understand them, will explain a whole gamut of things. We just read over these words.  Pay attention to the words. Don’t just read over them and try to get an overview. Pay attention to the words, all the words. Man should live by every word (Luke 4:4). All scripture are by inspiration of God, all these words are important.
 
Notice what it said “But to us there is but one God the Father, of whom are all…”.  What is the all?  Well, what is not of the Father, nothing.  What about Jesus, is Jesus of the Father or is He His own God?  It says, of the Father is all, that would have to include Jesus.  “…and we in Him…”,  what does this mean? There is one God and we are in Him. How are we in Him? There are other scriptures talking about God being in us.

Acts 17:23  “For as I passed by and saw the things you worship, I also found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOW GOD. Not knowing then when you worship, I make Him know to you.”

The Greek had all these gods, they thought maybe there was one they didn’t know about. So they even made an altar to the unknown god, and Paul said, the one you call the unknown god, is the One I worship.

God made the world and all things there in. How does that stack up with modern religion?
Where do they go to worship, in a church building. Where does God say He does not dwell ( Act 7:48; 17:24), in a building made with hands. There was a time when God dwelled in the Holy place, both in the tabernacle and in the temple in Jerusalem. But after He ushered in the NT, He destroyed that temple, and tore down the curtain that separated man from God. We go directly to God now.
 
“For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am in the midst of them,”  (Matt. 18:20).

You do not have to go to a church.  God does not dwell in church buildings.  Neither is He worshipped with man’s hands.  As if He needed anything, seeing that He gives us all life and breath, and all things.
 
Acts 17:26 “He has made of one blood, all nations of men, for to dwell on the face of the earth.  And He is determined their appointed seasons and boundaries of their habitation,
v. 27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel (grope) after Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”

Now we have another false concept, where is God? in heaven?  Well, where is heaven?  Waaay up there?
He is not far from any one of us, but what does that have to do with the theory, you have to go worship in a church or on this day or that day? He is not far from any of us! We don’t pay attention to the words.
 
GOD IS SPIRIT, but nowhere in scripture does it say, God is a Spirit, God is Spirit.
 
V. 28 “For in Him we live, and move, and have our being (we exist in Him), as certain even of your own poets have said, for we are also His offspring.”

Whenever Paul could make a connection with their pagan beliefs, he made the connection, so they would say, this man knows what he is talking about. Paul said, I am become all things to all men to gain some, (1 Cor. 9:22). When you go to Japan, you take off your shoes before you go in the house, he didn’t say I’m not going to take off my shoes for nobody.
 
Rom.  13:7 “Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”

So here he was siding with them, look your own poets have said that we are God’s own offspring. They were pagan, but they were right, in some things they were right.
 
So let’s think about this a little bit, who is the Father? In Him we live and breath and have our being. Liken the ocean to the Spirit of God, and liken us to the fish.  The fish are 95% water, the ocean is in the fish, and the fish are in the ocean, get it.
A bird has very porous bones, because they have to be very light. It flies in the heavens, it breaths fast, because it needs strength and oxygen. So the air (which is like the Spirit of God, which is what he calls it in the NT, Greek word for spirit is pheuma), the expanse is even called heaven, where the bird flies, and liken the air to the Spirit of God. The bird has air in him and is flying through the air.

Now this is what the Scriptures say, we are in God and God is in us. So, get it out of your head that God is a man, sitting on a stone throne, like Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., an old man with gray hair. God is right here, it (Bible) says so, we have to just listen to the words.

God is Spirit, it also says God is invisible, you can’t see Him, not literally. We can see Him in Spirit, as in our heart, in our mind, our soul, our spirit, in our innermost being.
 
The thing that makes us different from plants and other animals, is we can see God.  I’m trying to help you right now, to see God. So when you leave here, you will see God in a way you didn’t, when you walked in here. If God opens it up to you, I can only tell you, but God must open it up for you to grasp it.

God is here, not here because we are here, but He was here before we got here and He’ll still be after we leave. Because this desk is here and this desk has it's cohesion in Jesus Christ. It is through Jesus Christ that this desk holds together or it would fall apart. It takes energy and power, what is the source of the power, Jesus Christ, which comes from the Father and it’s passed off out of Him. One Father, one God, all and everything is out of Him. GOD IS ALMIGHTY!

What did Jesus say when He left His apostles and vanished out of their sight.
 
He said, “all power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth,” (Matt. 28:18).
 
That’s why He has come, He’s not the Father, but He’s God and He possesses all power in heaven and earth. By being the One, who possesses all power in heaven and earth, He is God. He didn’t have all power in heaven and earth from all eternity, it was given to Him. One God, everything is out of that God. We’re in Him and He’s in us, because He’s Spirit. Not a Spirit, in some geographical location.  The reason God knows everything, is in all places at all times, is because that’s where He is. He’s Spirit and He refers to Himself as Spirit. My Spirit is here, there and everywhere.

David was inspired to write, where can I go to get away from you God, up to heaven, down to sheol, (Psalms 139:7-12).
There’s no place I can go, where you are not. Why?  God is Spirit, God is not a man, get that out of your head. He (God) tells us that, God is not a man... Jesus Christ is a man.

Where is God?  EVERYWHERE!
If you're in a life raft, out in the middle of the ocean, you don’t have to cry out to God, to help you. God can see you, in the big ocean. He’s there, whether He’ll help, that’s a different story. But He is there.

I clipped this saying years ago and pasted it in the front of my Bible,

          'Thy ocean, O Lord, is so great and my boat is so small.'

It’s the truth, we are pretty small in the universe. Everything is out of God.
 
So there was a time, before everything was out of God, when there was just God. That is a hard concept... take away people, take away the earth, the stars, the planets, the solar system, the galaxies, and the whole universe, take it all away and what do you have? If you take away the creation, what is left? Would it be dark or light? You have to pay attention to the words. Take away the creation of the universe and you’re not left with blackness of outer space. I’m just going to read it to you.

Isa 45:5  I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;
v. 6  that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
v. 7  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

So if we do away with the created universe, what do you have? You have God and light.  He created the darkness. But I had someone say to me, cold is the absence of heat, and darkness is the absence of light, it’s not something, it’s the absence of something. I say, I know that sounds very scientific, but God’s thoughts are not your thoughts, neither His ways our ways, and God created darkness. Except that there be, this envelope of darkness that shrouds us from God, it would be light all the time, everywhere. There is no darkness with God. Only in His creation did He create darkness.
 
So don’t think before God created the universe, He was drifting around in outer space, with nothing to sit on, nowhere to go and nothing to do. It doesn’t even say that there was nothing. It doesn’t say in the beginning there was nothing and God made something.  t says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but God doesn’t live in things that are created.  He doesn’t need that for habitation, because He existed before He created those things. Now He resides in heaven, the heavens being (among other things) us. Our spirituality is of heaven and He dwells in man. Don’t you know your body is a holy temple of God. There are multiple heavens.

Back to verse 5.  How can there be no other God besides Jehovah?He is Yahweh and Elohim is part of Yahweh.  So He says I am the Lord and there is no God besides Me.
Now when it says, in the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth, it’s a plural. That’s why God said let US be making man in OUR image. How can one person say Us and Our? It’s because God is from the Hebrew word Elohim and it’s plural. Jehovah is part of that plurality. He is part of the Us, so really there is no Us. But whoever God represents, is Us. 

Sometimes He even represents us, as an angel of the Lord, but sometimes I have a feeling that it’s Jehovah, but it could be a special angel of the Lord, that is not Jehovah. And when He speaks on behalf of God, people took that as God.

Like an ambassador of our country, you would represent your country, tho you are not our country, you are the highest representative of your country.  But Jehovah is part of the Elohim, the One God.

I know this is a little bit of a stretch for most people, but God is not the first name of the Father. God is a title, it means the supreme Being of the universe, the supreme Deity, that’s what God means and represents. In most languages that’s the title, not the personal name of some being, it’s a title.
Smith is the title of who I am, I’m a Smith. I have a son, Blake Smith. If someone says to him, are you a Smith, he’ll say yes and Ray is my father.  He’s a Smith and I’m a Smith, I’m his father and he’s my son. But, he’s not me. I’m in him, because he came out of me. He deserves the title Smith, just as much as I do.
 
Jesus Christ looks like God, acts like God and thinks like God, has all the power, majesty and glory of God.
HE'S GOD!

So before the universe there was God. Was there anything besides God?  I don’t know, it doesn’t say.
It just tells us when the heavens and earth were made. It does not tell us if there were spiritual things that were, or were not made, before or after this.
 
Understand the Bible is very limited. The bible talks to humanity from the reference of the earth. It doesn’t go much farther than that. The Bible says virtually nothing about, before God created the heavens and the earth. And it says virtually nothing about when we will be in the kingdom or born into the family of God. Just a little phrase here and there.

So what is God? We know He is Spirit, He’s everywhere, He’s light, and He’s all powerful, all these things.
Not some lonely Being before He made heaven and earth.
 But this God, that is everywhere, this light, bright, brilliant power, majesty, glory, all knowledge and wisdom, represents Himself to humanity, as a Father.
 
So if you wanted to know what kind of a God He is, He’s like a Father!
That’s as close as you can come to what God is like.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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gohaley

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2010, 03:40:07 AM »

Thanx for your quick responses.

So is the Father invisible in the spiritual-heavenly realm as well as this physical realm? Beloved mentioned that the Father will be 'All in All', which would indicate to me that He is invisible in 'that' realm. Maybe???

By Rays teachings I understand that Yahwah-God is not the Father. Angels communicate with Yahwah all the time in the scriptures. Ray also mentioned somewhere that the angels will go thru some sort of judgement resulting in the Father being 'All in All' (all life in the universe).

Are there any more scriptures that will give me a clearer picture?

Thanx Guys   
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gohaley

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2010, 03:43:09 AM »

@Beloved.

I mean see. 
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aqrinc

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2010, 04:03:04 AM »

Hi Greg,

Here is an excerpt that will help, you may need to read the entire article, just click on the link below to be taken there.

Excerpt From:

WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . Nashville Conference 2007

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

WHO IS THE FATHER?

When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ, because they are one.   

Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father.  No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father.  He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement.  I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own. 

But in Spirit... the whole thing has to do with spirit and attitude, they are ONE! 

So it says in Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus.”   But when we read in the OT “the God of our fathers,” it was Jesus.  But what I want to show by that is the Scripture themselves gives us the latitude to recognize that no matter who the person is, whether it be the Father or the Son, it’s always God. 

It is always God.  Even Christ in His humiliation, in His physical form, where He was severely limited as a human being.  It may say it’s Jesus Christ speaking, but it doesn’t matter if it says it’s Jesus Christ speaking or the OT it’s Jehovah speaking.  We know if someone is speaking it’s NOT the Father.  Because He does not speak, except through the Son. 

So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father.  He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past.  All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son. 

So when Jesus Christ said, “before Abraham was, I Am” they should have begun to realize... wait a minute are You saying that was You?  You talked to Moses? 
Now we know that some of the apostles, got it for sure.  Paul understood that spiritual Rock was Christ, that is who it was. 

Now at the last supper Philip did not know, he just didn’t know.  So He said “have I been with you so long, and you ask who the Father is, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father.”  Then He went on in different places to say a number of things.

“I and the Father are One.”  (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.”  (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)

george :).

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2010, 04:35:04 PM »


Hi Greg,

Isa 66:1 Thus says Yahweh,  "The heavens are My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is this house which you are building for Me? And where is this place of My rest?

Jer 23:24  Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.

Col 1:17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Act 17:28  for in Him we live and move and have our being,

Well I do have an opinion about this and that is how can this type of being have a particular location that you could actually look at Him? I think we as humans are always trying to relate things to something physical, we want to understand things by using our 5 senses. But really God the Father is so far beyond anything so limiting as is in the physical realm that our comprehension, at this time, simple can not fantom what He is. Of course He made us this way, so what He did to help us out and give us some idea of Himself, was sent Jesus Christ which was His perfect repersentation in physical form.

Heb 1:3  He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature...

I do not believe that the Father can be limited into the figure of some kind of being. He gave us Jesus Christ who is everything that we need to know about who or what the Father is.

John 14:7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8  Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
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gohaley

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2010, 04:39:30 PM »

Thanx guys. The answers given were great. I thank God for leading me to this forum.
God has blessed you guys with wisdom. I'm amazed when I read the answers given in various other topics on the forum also. It always challenges my thinking. I mean always.  

Amazing

Greg
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2010, 07:19:04 PM »


Hi gohaley

These Scriptures also show that we do not see God physically but by His Spirit we are blessed to come to understand and know the Ways of God and His Purposes and Plans that His Spirit shows to us. We can not know God's ways and thoughts with our thoughts.....

Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.


God shows us His Virtues, Wisdom, Sovereignty and Love through His Spirit working in us


1Co 2:10  But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.

God is not seen with the physical sences so

1Jn 4:12  No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13  By this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.


Arc
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gohaley

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 07:14:19 AM »

Thanx Arc.

I completly agree with you on this subject with regards to Mankind ever seeing God (the Father). I was just wondering if the angels could see the Father or if He was Spirit to them also.

I know that Jesus is everything that the Father is, so it wouldn't matter either way if they acually saw the Father or not because he does his work thru His Son. ( If you get my meaning )

Thanx again Arc 
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 07:25:11 AM »



Hi gohaley

Mat 18:10  Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Whether you take the expression "to see" as literal sight or comprehensive insight, I believe that the angels who behold the face of God who is in heaven, are as Jesus says, comprehending Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Blessings to you
Arc
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gohaley

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 04:13:21 PM »

Thanx Arc. That was a great answer to my question.

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 05:48:10 PM »


Blessings to you gohaley :)
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judith collier

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 06:57:35 PM »

Kat, help me here. If Jesus is the WORD of God made flesh, then he was always with God. He is God. I don't believe He was created by the Father but being the Father's WORD He always existed within the Father, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Father always existed, if not then tell me who or what created Him. Whatever is said of the Father can also be said of the Son. One in Being with the Father. Always!
Have to go now but anticipate your answer, Thanks ahead of time as you always do such a good job. Judy
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Kat

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2010, 12:11:59 AM »


Hi Judy,

John 16:28  I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)

Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)

Jesus "came forth from the Father" and was "the beginning of the creation of God."  So He was created by the Father and it seems that Christ was the very first thing created because we know that everything else was created by Him.

Col 1:16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

So Christ was in the "beginning" as "the Word" and created all else.

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2  He was in the beginning with God;
v.3  all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

The purpose of "the Word"... since nobody has "heard His (the Father"s) voice at any time" (John 5:37) then Jesus Christ was the means by which the truth would be given to people, through inspiration in the OT.

Heb 1:1  God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

But then He actually came and brought the word of truth to us in the flesh.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Luke 5:1  While the people pressed upon Him to hear the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennes'aret.

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

There is no Scripture that states how the Father came into existence or that He wasn't always there, somehow. We just don't know. I hope that is if some help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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judith collier

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2010, 04:11:52 AM »

Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning"  To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God, the Father
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2010, 10:01:58 AM »

Hi Judy,

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
    "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

Even if you disregard the part I struck out, still the rest of the sentence is speaking of the "the Amen..." which says He is "...the Beginning of the creation of God."  

You can see that it is Christ that is addressing all of the churches.

Rev 2:1  "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
    "These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:

Rev 2:8  "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
    "These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:

Rev 2:12  "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
    "These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:

Rev 2:18  "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
    "These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:

Rev 3:1  "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
    "These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:

Rev 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
    "These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one open":

Back in the first chapter we also see who is addressing the churches.

Rev 1:4  John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
   Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
v. 5  and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
    To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
v. 6  and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
v. 7  Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
v. 8  "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 09, 2010, 10:03:39 AM by Kat »
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Samson

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2010, 10:03:58 AM »

Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning"  To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy

Hi Judy,

            After my brief comment, I have copied and pasted a few excerpts from the Article: Is God a Trinity or an expanded family by Ray that might assist. The Greek word Genea whic is the root word that means: begin, began, to beget, conceive, born, etc. If someone or something has a beginning or a start, than that means at one time there was no existence as of yet. Trinitarians believe that Jesus was Co-Eternal with the Father, meaning that He always existed. Bible Scholars of Christendom have a tendency to take a basic root word of something like genea and turn it into meanings that contradict it's primary meaning. They usually do this especially when it involves their Doctrines. When it comes to Greek or Hebrew Words that don't pose any threat to their Doctrines, they are usually pretty accurate as to meaning and usage.

          John. 1:18 literally says that Jesus is " the only begotten God" (GK- Ho monogenes Theos). Who is He "Begotten of: The Father. Begotten is derived from the Root Greek Word " Gennao." Anyway, see excerpts below in blue of Rays.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

Now we are getting down to what the Bible really teaches. God has a family. God is "The FATHER" of His family. Jesus Christ is "the Firstborn SON" of God’s Family.

"Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the SON OF HIS LOVE, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins, Who is the Image of the invisible God, FIRSTBORN of every creature..." (Col. 1:13-15).

Hey! I’m a "creature." You’re a "creature." This verse is talking about US!

We are now, already, in spirit, a part of God’s family!

"For you did not get slavery’s spirit to fear again, but you got the SPIRIT OF SONSHIP in which we are crying, ‘Abba, FATHER!’ The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD." (Rom. 8:14-16).

Yes, God wants sons (and daughters, of course).

"Blessed be the God and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy, and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a SON..." (Eph. 1:3-5).

You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?

But notice how you answer this question in your own statement:  "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation."  There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God!  It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it?   Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).

Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."  There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,

"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him." 

And not verse 28:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.

Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...?  And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"

As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM."  Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."

Gotta run. Till next time. . .

Ray

                           Hope this Helps, Samson.

P.S I might have mispelled the Greek Word Gennao, this is also mentioned to some degree in the Thread: Greek words defined & usuage.






And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!



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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: God, the Father
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2010, 10:32:09 AM »

Hi Judy

Allow me to express another perspective on this important discussion you have raised.
 
Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 Christ calls Himself three things. He is the Amen, the faithful and true witness.

As the 'Amen' we know Christ as the Truth as defined by Dr. Strong as "Properly firm, figuratively trustworthy."

Amen is often translated in the King James as 'verily,' meaning 'truly,' and is often seen repeated as "Verily, verily," especially in the gospel of John. For example:

Joh 16:23  And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

I consider this, that no one has been born as Jesus was born and we have not been made as the first Adam was made.  We are in between the beginning and the end.  We are not literally nor spiritually either the beginning or the end. Jesus Christ is the last Adam also.  So really and truly, verily verily, we are a new creation of God unlike either the first or the last Adam. We have the soul of Adam and the quickening Spirit of Christ. We are unlike any other creature God is making to purge and purify the soul of Adam in the quickening Spirit of His Son Jesus Christ. This is in true form to Jesus Christ doing a new thing.

We are being made to be overcomers of the world as is Jesus Christ and we are being made to be the best of Adam, purged of carnality and corruption made to be as God to know the difference between good and evil. The fate of all is salvation.

We all still have to die so I still think we all walk in the down payment of the total conversion to the full image and standard height of Christ.

So Judy,  for me, only Christ has overcome the world and is the firstborn of every creature.  The Spirit OF Christ is in us, but that does not make us HIM. We are not fully Adam either. We are a new creation.

The Image of Christ is as different from being Christ Himself as it is for Jesus to be His own Father.

God the Father of whom are all things is much greater than God The Son by whom are all things.
 
We are by whom are all things that is Christ. So we are by the by….we are of the beginning of creation, (Christ) not The Beginning of Creation. The beginning of  creation is Christ who has overcome the world.

Just as Christ is of God His Father, we are of Christ the Son by whom are all things.

God has not finished with us yet. :)
Arc
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