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God, the Father
Kat:
Hi Judy,
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Jesus "came forth from the Father" and was "the beginning of the creation of God." So He was created by the Father and it seems that Christ was the very first thing created because we know that everything else was created by Him.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
So Christ was in the "beginning" as "the Word" and created all else.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God;
v.3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
The purpose of "the Word"... since nobody has "heard His (the Father"s) voice at any time" (John 5:37) then Jesus Christ was the means by which the truth would be given to people, through inspiration in the OT.
Heb 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
But then He actually came and brought the word of truth to us in the flesh.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
Luke 5:1 While the people pressed upon Him to hear the word of God, He was standing by the lake of Gennes'aret.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
There is no Scripture that states how the Father came into existence or that He wasn't always there, somehow. We just don't know. I hope that is if some help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
judith collier:
Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning" To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy
Kat:
Hi Judy,
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
"These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Even if you disregard the part I struck out, still the rest of the sentence is speaking of the "the Amen..." which says He is "...the Beginning of the creation of God."
You can see that it is Christ that is addressing all of the churches.
Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
"These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands:
Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,
"These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
Rev 2:12 "And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,
"These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword:
Rev 2:18 "And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,
"These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass:
Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
"These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:
Rev 3:7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
"These things says He who is holy, He who is true, "He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one open":
Back in the first chapter we also see who is addressing the churches.
Rev 1:4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
v. 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
v. 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
v. 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
v. 8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Samson:
--- Quote from: Judy on June 09, 2010, 01:11:52 AM ---Kat, I see Rev. 3:14 differently, let me explain. "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, (right here, the faithful and true witness, is an appositive) the beginning of the creation of God;
Prior to this vs. the angel is talking about those who overcome which if you follow the verb "SAITH the Amen, ( then skip the appositive, which does no more than describe the Amen) and go for the direct object, "the beginning" To me this speaks of the overcomers and they being the BEGINNING of the creation of God.
What sayest you. Judy
--- End quote ---
Hi Judy,
After my brief comment, I have copied and pasted a few excerpts from the Article: Is God a Trinity or an expanded family by Ray that might assist. The Greek word Genea whic is the root word that means: begin, began, to beget, conceive, born, etc. If someone or something has a beginning or a start, than that means at one time there was no existence as of yet. Trinitarians believe that Jesus was Co-Eternal with the Father, meaning that He always existed. Bible Scholars of Christendom have a tendency to take a basic root word of something like genea and turn it into meanings that contradict it's primary meaning. They usually do this especially when it involves their Doctrines. When it comes to Greek or Hebrew Words that don't pose any threat to their Doctrines, they are usually pretty accurate as to meaning and usage.
John. 1:18 literally says that Jesus is " the only begotten God" (GK- Ho monogenes Theos). Who is He "Begotten of: The Father. Begotten is derived from the Root Greek Word " Gennao." Anyway, see excerpts below in blue of Rays.
I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
And the next verse says
"But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)
I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.
If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!
The above verse really doesn’t need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.
How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."
Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"
Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God’s definition far easier and better than the theologians’ "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?
Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
Now we are getting down to what the Bible really teaches. God has a family. God is "The FATHER" of His family. Jesus Christ is "the Firstborn SON" of God’s Family.
"Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the SON OF HIS LOVE, in Whom we are having the deliverance, the pardon of sins, Who is the Image of the invisible God, FIRSTBORN of every creature..." (Col. 1:13-15).
Hey! I’m a "creature." You’re a "creature." This verse is talking about US!
We are now, already, in spirit, a part of God’s family!
"For you did not get slavery’s spirit to fear again, but you got the SPIRIT OF SONSHIP in which we are crying, ‘Abba, FATHER!’ The spirit itself is testifying together with our spirit that WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD." (Rom. 8:14-16).
Yes, God wants sons (and daughters, of course).
"Blessed be the God and FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ, according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy, and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a SON..." (Eph. 1:3-5).
You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?
But notice how you answer this question in your own statement: "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation." There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God! It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it? Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).
Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,
"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."
And not verse 28:
"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.
Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...? And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"
As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM." Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."
Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
Hope this Helps, Samson.
P.S I might have mispelled the Greek Word Gennao, this is also mentioned to some degree in the Thread: Greek words defined & usuage.
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 1: 14-17).
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Judy
Allow me to express another perspective on this important discussion you have raised.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Christ calls Himself three things. He is the Amen, the faithful and true witness.
As the 'Amen' we know Christ as the Truth as defined by Dr. Strong as "Properly firm, figuratively trustworthy."
Amen is often translated in the King James as 'verily,' meaning 'truly,' and is often seen repeated as "Verily, verily," especially in the gospel of John. For example:
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
I consider this, that no one has been born as Jesus was born and we have not been made as the first Adam was made. We are in between the beginning and the end. We are not literally nor spiritually either the beginning or the end. Jesus Christ is the last Adam also. So really and truly, verily verily, we are a new creation of God unlike either the first or the last Adam. We have the soul of Adam and the quickening Spirit of Christ. We are unlike any other creature God is making to purge and purify the soul of Adam in the quickening Spirit of His Son Jesus Christ. This is in true form to Jesus Christ doing a new thing.
We are being made to be overcomers of the world as is Jesus Christ and we are being made to be the best of Adam, purged of carnality and corruption made to be as God to know the difference between good and evil. The fate of all is salvation.
We all still have to die so I still think we all walk in the down payment of the total conversion to the full image and standard height of Christ.
So Judy, for me, only Christ has overcome the world and is the firstborn of every creature. The Spirit OF Christ is in us, but that does not make us HIM. We are not fully Adam either. We are a new creation.
The Image of Christ is as different from being Christ Himself as it is for Jesus to be His own Father.
God the Father of whom are all things is much greater than God The Son by whom are all things.
We are by whom are all things that is Christ. So we are by the by….we are of the beginning of creation, (Christ) not The Beginning of Creation. The beginning of creation is Christ who has overcome the world.
Just as Christ is of God His Father, we are of Christ the Son by whom are all things.
God has not finished with us yet. :)
Arc
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